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Author Topic: Mesbah-1 air defense mass-produced  (Read 8768 times)

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Offline nomad

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Re: Mesbah-1 air defense mass-produced
« Reply #125 on: September 28, 2011, 09:07:04 AM »
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Now about using nano-gas to locate stealth plane and stealth projectile such as glide bomb , a brother sometime ago said that if the body of stealth plane is damaged by shrapnel then it looses it's stealth ability ( smooth surface ) . Also if you make this nano gas have ability to stick to surfaces ( by electro-static charge ) or by actually being sticky ! Then plane or glide bomb that travel through this becomes visible as well as having chance of being visible on doppler radar ! Dispersion at altitude above target will ensure the glide bomb has to travel through this ! 
Error is inconsistent with my prime function .

Offline Numbers

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Re: Mesbah-1 air defense mass-produced
« Reply #126 on: September 28, 2011, 10:37:48 AM »
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Now about using nano-gas to locate stealth plane and stealth projectile such as glide bomb, a brother sometime ago said that if the body of stealth plane is damaged by shrapnel then it looses it's stealth ability (smooth surface). Also if you make this nano gas have ability to stick to surfaces (by electro-static charge) or by actually being sticky! Then plane or glide bomb that travel through this becomes visible as well as having chance of being visible on doppler radar! Dispersion at altitude above target will ensure the glide bomb has to travel through this! 

Yes, if you stick non Stealth matter (such as metal particles) to Stealth Aircraft body then you will see it on Radar.

JDAM bomb is always visible on Radar since it is made of metal. There is no need to spray metal aerosol (suspension of fine solid particles or liquid droplets in a gas) on JDAM in order to see it on Radar.

Metal particles might be of micro meter size and not of nano meter size. That gives us "micro gas" and not a "nano gas".

And nomad, you do not need to wait until JDAM explodes to see other JDAMs and Aircrafts that dropped them. You can always detect approaching JDAM or Aircraft with Infrared Thermal camera or Phased Array Radar.

In theory the easiest way to detect Stealth Aircraft is to use long wavelength Nebo SVU Radar or Infrared Thermal camera. I do not know if Russians proved Nebo theory with actual detection of Stealth Aircraft. But there was video on Internet showing Igla Infrared Thermal guided missile shooting down Predator UAV. Predator is similar to Stealth F-22/F-35 in materials its made of and heat signature (but not completely Stealth).

Also High Explosive rounds on Parachute are not a good solution since they glide down the ground losing the correct interception position. To intercept missile AA gun round should be placed in exact correct position in front of approaching missile and then exploded to destroy the missile. Constantly gliding down rounds are useless. They will not be in correct interception position.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 10:51:58 AM by Numbers »

Offline PERSPOLIS

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Re: Mesbah-1 air defense mass-produced
« Reply #127 on: September 28, 2011, 11:02:04 AM »
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if stealth was fully detectable by Nebo the russian and chinese would never built Stealth fighters ... here is my 2 cents ...

Online the8march

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Re: Mesbah-1 air defense mass-produced
« Reply #128 on: September 28, 2011, 11:21:58 AM »
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Thermal infrared cameras can be used to aid Mesbah. They also have some limitations depending on weather and the optics used. Its a tradeoff as always

Offline nomad

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Re: Mesbah-1 air defense mass-produced
« Reply #129 on: September 28, 2011, 01:48:14 PM »
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@numbers

You are right about JDAM  ( the present version ) being metal . But if I remember right there are other types that are low RCS .
Or at least it is possible to make them so that they are . Also detecting by IR can be overcome very easy . For both missile and for glide bomb . Simply cool them in bomb bay  before launch or allow for gas cooling during flight . Then again we end up with cold stone coming to Earth ! Even HARM can be IR stealth after burn out and body cooling . So alternative optic devices may help working in the UV band .

Now with this Micro-gas , the dispersal can be cheap ( by crop duster plane ) or simple rocket . But the idea came to me that instead of a horizontal blanket , a vertical blanket will work best . The slightly heavier than air particles drop to earth creating a perfect wall . This effect is the same as the cannyon effect  that destroys GPS reception for glide bomb .  8)

Offline Numbers

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Re: Mesbah-1 air defense mass-produced
« Reply #130 on: September 29, 2011, 07:22:28 AM »
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So alternative optic devices may help working in the UV band.

Yes, it is possible to research into UV optics. The first similar thing that comes to mind is Night Vision device that uses Near Infrared radiation to provide vision during night time. Night Vision was also developed as the research project into Near Infrared optics to assist soldiers to see at night time.

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Now with this Micro-gas, the dispersal can be cheap (by crop duster plane) or simple rocket. But the idea came to me that instead of a horizontal blanket, a vertical blanket will work best.

If Nebo SVU long wavelength Radar and Infrared Thermal guidence MANPADs fail in their job to detect and hit Stealth than "micro gas" might be developed.

Offline nomad

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Re: Mesbah-1 air defense mass-produced
« Reply #131 on: September 29, 2011, 12:31:43 PM »
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I just remember something I said before about position of RADAR against HARM incoming missile . Now if the radar of AAA is positioned in a way so that the RADAR cover each other both physically and data link as for example two RADAR dish point to a place above target ( not away from target ) then HARM only detect or is more attracted to RADAR furthest away that is...... directly pointing at it . It will fly over the other RADAR . This one can then track and gun hit it  before HARM reach other target . Better still is that info from first RADAR is passed on to second RADAR ..........( this one can be swiched off to make sure no radiation leak)  and second RADAR then use stored info and turn on . Or the first RADAR can be a cheap system only capable of sending signal but no other software / hardware and simply attract HARM . The second RADAR can do proper targetting and have gun .I am quite sure Iran already does know about this as I myself learn it here . But just quick reminder .

Also if micro-gas or chaff is used to create GPS blind spot or RADAR blind spot , then obviously pointing the RADAR at the wall will not work . The RADAR should be placed and point upward parralel to wall  or away from wall toward and above target .

Offline Numbers

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Re: Mesbah-1 air defense mass-produced
« Reply #132 on: September 30, 2011, 06:31:56 AM »
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Or the first RADAR can be a cheap system only capable of sending signal but no other software/hardware and simply attract HARM. The second RADAR can do proper targetting and have gun. I am quite sure Iran already does know about this as I myself learn it here. But just quick reminder.


I have read long time ago that some Russian company tried to develop Radar decoys to attract HARM missiles. On the video below it is shown at the end. The Radar decoy and Fragmentation Chaff charge that is supposed to redirect and crash HARM.

Russian SAM company "Almaz Antey" (produces S-300 as well).

ALMAZ-ANTEY Russia antiair force Концерн ПВО Алмаз-Антей - promo video 2006 year Small | Large

« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 07:11:00 AM by Numbers »

Offline nomad

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Re: Mesbah-1 air defense mass-produced
« Reply #133 on: September 30, 2011, 08:48:02 AM »
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Yes I saw that section about countermeasures . I think it to be physical countermeasure with electronic effects ? There are a lot of concepts here to notice and learn from . But HARM is not the only method used against RADAR . The attack starts with ECM and jamming from planes and drones hundreds of kilometers away . This is what US did in Iraq . The ECM planes are out of reach of all SAM or the ECM drones are disposable . So Iran has to use planes and intercept this ECM platform way out at sea may be with special developed ECCM pod hunting missiles (modified air to air HARM ). So electronic and information war will start first against most enemy . The winner will be the side with greatest resources . In all this video clips the weapons depend on various RADAR . If this is destroyed by ECM or made weak then attack will start .

The Americans have shown that they will use this chance to launch Cruise missiles from very long range . A range out of reach of  all weapons . All AA system that are static and rely on RADAR will be taken out . As they can not direct any weapons ..... The radar sites can also be hit by various weapons launched from planes at closer and closer ranges as the SAM sites are eventually destroyed . It is at this stage that tactics will change . Iran instead of using the RADIO band for war may start to jam it and use the OPTIC band . This is where assymetric tactic comes in .

All I am saying is that plans and equipment should exist for this almost certain eventuality . Dispersing chaff will not only blind the enemy but everyone including own forces ( if they still use the RADAR based system) . So detecting by optic in various forms is the only way left . It is not without reason that most creatures have eyes that see in visual wave band . Although some exist that see in IR and UV . The reason is that this waveband is most capable of long range definition and is robust . In this lets say horrible electronic environment that Iran will have to create , there may be still room for a limited amount of radar .But this radar is most probably short range and can work ( or take advantage of ) in this environment .

   

Offline Numbers

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Re: Mesbah-1 air defense mass-produced
« Reply #134 on: October 06, 2011, 08:07:39 AM »
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But HARM is not the only method used against RADAR. The attack starts with ECM and jamming from planes and drones hundreds of kilometers away. This is what US did in Iraq. The ECM planes are out of reach of all SAM or the ECM drones are disposable. So Iran has to use planes and intercept this ECM platform way out at sea may be with special developed ECCM pod hunting missiles (modified air to air HARM). So electronic and information war will start first against most enemy. The winner will be the side with greatest resources. In all this video clips the weapons depend on various RADAR. If this is destroyed by ECM or made weak then attack will start.


Chinese have developed SAM missile that can target ECM source of radiation. It basically hits the ECM plane by locking on its ECM radiation. The missile name is FT-2000 and it is based on HQ-9 or S-300PMU missiles. It is an excelent idea to have optional Passive Radar guidence for long range SAM missile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-radiation_missile#Surface-to-Air

"Due to experiences with jamming during Vietnam and Middle Eastern wars in late 1960s by US-built aircraft, the Soviets have designed an alternative guidance mode for their S-75 (SA-2) missiles, which allowed them to home onto the source of the jamming if normal forms of navigation failed. In cases of heavy jamming, missiles were often launched exclusively in this mode, ironically because passive tracking allowed the SAM operators to prevent American anti-radiation missiles from being fired at them in retaliation. Recently, The People's Republic of China developed the FT-2000 system to counter AEW and AWACS targets, based on the HQ-9 which is in turn based on the S-300PMU. The anti-radiation missile systems has been marketed to Pakistan and various countries, without success."

Offline Numbers

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Re: Mesbah-1 air defense mass-produced
« Reply #135 on: October 06, 2011, 08:22:11 AM »
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Iran instead of using the RADIO band for war may start to jam it and use the OPTIC band. This is where assymetric tactic comes in.

Yes. Electro Optical (EO) guidence is a must have for most short range SAMs (30-50 km range).

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It is not without reason that most creatures have eyes that see in visual wave band. Although some exist that see in IR and UV. The reason is that this waveband is most capable of long range definition and is robust.

Yes. Passive IR and UV radiation scanners are important research in todays military. Igla type MANPADs use IR camera for guidence.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 08:36:29 AM by Numbers »

 

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