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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
This article proves what exactly? Doubters of what? More importanly I'd rather read FOXNEWS stories than Debka..
"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell."
- Harry Truman

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ir
Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
I still don't know what to think of this system, how about you guys? Is this better than the Samavat? Is it even cheaper? Wouldn't 4 automated zu-23-2s in the same area be better than this?

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Freeloader (اش خور)
its look cool two

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Major (سرگرد)
I know we've suggested a number of other radars that the unidentified one associated with the Mesbah can be compared to, but I don't think anyone's mentioned how similar it looks to the Chinese engagement radar associated with the FB-6A and (and by extension, the US's TWQ-1).

It has very similar characteristics including being composed of multiple independent rows of plates (9 rows on the Mesbah vs 12 on the FB-6) with the "ridges" running the length of the rows. Notably though, the Mesbah's radar has oversized plates and a smaller H:L ratio compared to the FB-6.

The thing is though, I can't find any information about either radar; I can find barely a mentiion at all that TWQ-1 avenger even used a radar, and those are just usually in reference to comparing it to the FB-6.


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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
Ayyash,

I found some specifications for the FB-6A system from the International Assessment and Strategy Center:

" The FB-6A turret comprises 8x FN-6 SAMs that have a maximum range of 5.5km. It also employs a machine gun according to a Poly brochure, but this could not be seen in the accompanying photo of the system. Its tracking system comprises a TV camera, a thermal camera and a laser range finder. The tracking system is able to detect a 2m square target out to 10km. Polys brochure notes that up to six FB-6As can be networked with a central longer-range radar or optical detection system to provide stationary or mobile air defense."

http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.63/pub_detail.asp

Now I see a problem with these specs and any "anti-cruise missile" ability. Most cruise missiles like the Tomahawk are thought to RCS of <0.5 meter squared, while this system states a 10km range against a 2 meter squared target. This suggests the Chinese radar was definitely not designed from taking out cruise missiles. Now this doesn't mean the Iranian radar isn't designed for such a task, just that this somewhat similar Chinese radar appears not to have been.


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lb
1st lieutenant (ستوان یكم)

" The FB-6A turret comprises 8x FN-6 SAMs that have a maximum range of 5.5km. It also employs a machine gun according to a Poly brochure, but this could not be seen in the accompanying photo of the system. Its tracking system comprises a TV camera, a thermal camera and a laser range finder. The tracking system is able to detect a 2m square target out to 10km.

Now I see a problem with these specs and any "anti-cruise missile" ability. Most cruise missiles like the Tomahawk are thought to RCS of <0.5 meter squared, while this system states a 10km range against a 2 meter squared target. This suggests the Chinese radar was definitely not designed from taking out cruise missiles. Now this doesn't mean the Iranian radar isn't designed for such a task, just that this somewhat similar Chinese radar appears not to have been.

If i understood correctly the tracking system is optical... So for distances closer than 10km it can detect smaller targets ... At its range, 5.5km, the object will be 1m... What u mentioned about Tomahawk is the RCS (radar cross section) which is in most cases smaller than the real ( optical) area ...
It is also not clear what do they mean by detect... Is it real detect or identify? And in which optical system, IR or visible? In the IR you could detect a hot object even if it is smaller than a single pixel... In the visible you can easily use bigger more magnifying optics..

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au
3rd lieutenant (ستوان سوم)
The tracking system is able to detect a 2m square target out to 10km. Poly's brochure notes that up to six FB-6A's can be networked with a central longer-range radar or optical detection system to provide stationary or mobile air defense.

10 kilometers range is not enough to destroy US UAV like Reaper. Its Service Ceiling is 15 kilometers.

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moores law driving force of innovation
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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
so this system is practicaly useless.
Iran Khodro largest auto maker in larger middle east

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWwHIPoQdw8&list=UUMF4vfECnuAPAfW0s6lMpyg&index=1&feature=plcp

<a href="http://www.quickiqtest.net" title="IQ Test"><img src="http://www.quickiqtest.net/graphic/badges/sf114.gif" width="150" height="75" alt="IQ Test" border="0"></a><br>QuickIQTest.net - <a title="Quick IQ Test" href="http://www.quickiqtest.net">IQ Test</a>

this is the fixed video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn-T-5k0_4E&list=UUMF4vfECnuAPAfW0s6lMpyg&index=1

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lb
1st lieutenant (ستوان یكم)
so this system is practicaly useless.

This is a low-altitude system. It can be used for countering aircraft, cruise missiles, choppers and other low-altitude threats.

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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
but planes can target it from 120 km with anti radiation missiles.

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1st lieutenant (ستوان یكم)
but planes can target it from 120 km with anti radiation missiles.

It has an optical tracking system for these cases. Low altitude air defense systems are part of a complete defensive shield... There are some other systems for aircrafts 120 km away ;-)

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ir
Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
what other systems do you mean?

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au
3rd lieutenant (ستوان سوم)
but planes can target it from 120 km with anti radiation missiles.

Then Anti Radiation missile will explode after being hit by Mesbah-1 gun fire.

China and Iran though are in need for High Altitude Air Defence system that can see Stealth Air Planes. Nebo Radar perhaps? May be dual Nebo Radar and Infra Red Thermal guidence for High Altitude missile (like HAWK)?

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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
the8march,

The article about the FB-6A does seem to say it's an Optical system except one thing. The fact that the description states "RCS" indicates they much be talking about a Radar system. Optical (whether CCD or IR) wouldn't use that term not would they refer to targets measure by square meters, only radars measure target size by square meters and use the term "RCS".

In the case of the Mesbah-1, a HARM missile will continue to the target even if the Mesbah's radar is turned off and the optical system used instead. The HARM is designed to "remember" the intended target and continue towards it even if the radar is switched off. Only if the Mesbah-1 system knows ahead of time HARM-armed aircraft are approaching would it's electro-optic system be of use.

In other words, in any scenario in which the Mesbah-1 uses it's radar and there are HARM-equipped aircraft in the area, the Mesbah-1 is in great danger.

I am also quite skeptical that the AA guns linked to the Mesbah-1 could even hit a HARM missile. The HARM is a small target no matter what kind of guidance system you use (whether radar or IR/CCD).
Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 08:17:46 PM by Eagle2009

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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
That doesn't mean the Mesbah-1 is "worthless", just it needs to be intregrated properly to the full air defense network. As a stand-alone system though, I think the Mesbah is quite vunerable.

Then again, the Mesbah-1 was not likely designed to operate on it's own. The system was likely designed to prevent the kind of mass cruise missile strikes as seen in the first hours of the Libyan conflict. In such a scenario, the enemy would likely fire hundreds of cruise missiles at various targets across Iran and the Mesbah-1 is designed to compliment the Tor M1 in defense against these cruise missiles.

And we still don't know what kind of range the Mesbah-1's radar has, Ayyash was just pointing out that the Chinese FB-6A system uses a somewhat similar looking radar and thus it's performance may give us a hint at the Mesbah-1 radar abilities. And if it is anything like the performance figures of the FB-6A radar then it would not be the best at taking out cruise missiles. However it should also be remembered that the FB-6 was not necessarily designed to counter cruise missiles. Given the range figures of the FB-6, it wouldn't give it alot of time to intercept a cruise missile.

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Major (سرگرد)
I have to concur with Eagle on the subject of the Mesbah-1's effectiveness. Each piece of equipment is only as useful as the sum of it's parts.

It's actually somewhat unique in terms of modern VSHORAD because it's static; the emphasis in most modern systems is on  mobility since this translates into survivability against weapons like the HARM. Iran however has based it's AD-network around "islands" of relatively short-ranged systems like the HAWK and HQ-2 entrenched in semi-hardened facilities supported by handfuls of 23 and 35 mm guns on concrete pads.  For better or for worse, the Mesbah-1 fits in pretty well with this strategy.

There's no point in making the Mesbah-1 comparable to the SA-15 or SA-22 in terms of mobility because anything they'd be tasked with protecting wouldn't be moving that fast anyway. The role of the Mesbah-1 within Iran's IADS network is to protect air-defence bases from the inevitable SEAD/DEAD which would be directed their way, which, as Eagle pointed out, just happened in Libya. Thusly because mobility can't be utilized, everything has to be invested in making sure cruise missiles and PGMs can't get through. We've already seen this strategy to some extent utilized in wargames surrounding strategic sites which utilize waves of radar-guided AAA. It's actually antithetical to much of the grand strategy utilized in Iran's naval and ground warfare doctrine which emphasizes mobility and passive evasion (for instance, look at AShMs) which I think is extremely odd. Then again, it does fit in well with the idea of localized defence nodes that are independent of larger networks for protection.

This explanation puts a couple of things I've been thinking about in regard to the Mesbah-1 in a different light:

I was rather surprised that the radar and EO system were mounted in separate vehicles since in most modern systems they're mounted coaxially. Putting it on a separate trailer means another truck to tow it, another generator, more time spent setting it up/taking it down, and so on. Even the Skyguard has an integrated EO/radar trailer. Likewise, I've been wondering where the engagement radar is. Most of the radar-guided AAA systems I can think of off the top of my head use both an engagement and acquisition radar but we have only seen one here and I'd wager it's a general search radar because of the way it's mounted and traverses. Interestingly the same is true for the Samavat (though since we only ever saw one picture of it's radar it can hardly be called conclusive). Maybe the optical system is the primary engagement device rather then simply a backup in case of jamming as is the case for many VSHORAD devices today. In this light, putting them in separate trailers makes perfect sense because mobility isn't expected anyway, and separating the components adds in redundancy to SEAD/DEAD that would be absent if they were both co-located. Permanent passive engagement means that even in event of a successful HARM strike the Mesbah can remain in the battle with just the EO device.

---

With regard to the identity of the radar, I've been doing some more fishing around and a number of radars that have the same basic configuration of antenna with long horizontal plates arrayed in a column, are given this characteristic shape by using planar array waveguides. (I'm thinking particularly of the 9S18M1, pictured here). It might be what we're looking at here in the case of Mesbah. I just wish I could dig up information on how the FB-6 actually functions.
Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 02:48:58 AM by Ayyash

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ir
Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
good explanations Ayyash, thanks.
I guess Mesbah-1 is still under development , we saw its gun for the fist time in last parade. I remember a video about Mesbah . On that video there was a truck of Roland system too, this truck of Roland suggests me , maybe they want to fully mobilize Mesbah-1? its just a guess.

But, gennarally , it had been always a quastion , why do Iran make their domestical air-defence system like samavat,mersad,sayyad, or even FM-80 , fully self propellant mobile?
fortunately recently a report was published about mobilizing ( or increasing mobility) of S-200.
Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 03:37:24 AM by M-ATF

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But, gennarally , it had been always a quastion , why do Iran make their domestical air-defence system like samavat,mersad,sayyad, or even FM-80 , fully self propellant mobile?
fortunately recently a report was published about mobilizing ( or increasing mobility) of S-200.
That's something I've always wondered as well since mobility is one of those things that represents a significant shift in capability. I was thinking about this subject when the Shalamcheh showed up recently - Iran's appearing to be investing a good deal of effort in keeping the HAWK-platform relevant but they haven't pursued mobility. It's not an issue of capability since we know Iran produces or has imported in great number the requisite heavy trucks (MAN, Kamaz, Mercedes-Benz, Iveco), and has a wealth of experience putting components inside containers to go on the back of these trucks (Noor/Zelzal/Shahab, the containerized Spoon-Rest).

(I think consolidating the multiple radar's of a HAWK battery would be a good first step toward this process. This is one of the reasons phased array radars are so important - they allow a single unit to broadcast both a wide search pattern and a narrow tracking beam simply by shifting a few tiny antenna on the face rather then having to use an entirely different radar system)

Perhaps it's a legacy of an air defence system that has always been structured this way. I've read that Iran deployed their SAMs in largely the same manner during the Iran-Iraq war with relatively limited deployments of HAWKs to the front. But this still doesn't explain why they haven't changed it in the 20+ years since the war ended.

Maybe the IRIADF just doesn't view it with the same importance we do. I guess the question is why when it's been demonstrated so many times that it is important. What does the IRIADF know that we don't?


btw, do you happen to still have the link about the S-200?
Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 05:27:43 AM by Ayyash

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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
...
It's not an issue of capability since we know Iran produces or has imported in great number the requisite heavy trucks (MAN, Kamaz, Mercedes-Benz, Iveco), and has a wealth of experience putting components inside containers to go on the back of these trucks (Noor/Zelzal/Shahab, the containerized Spoon-Rest).
...
btw, do you happen to still have the link about the S-200?

We also saw project of mobile howitzer on MAN trucks too.
I remember during an airdefence wargames in previous years, Defence minister announced mobilizing Hawk systems, but they didnt show any pic.

I guess one of the reasons we dont see self-propellant mobile Mersad systems can be due to time and costs. many times we have seen systems built by Iranians but after short time they modified them.
I guess first priority for IRIADF is production of enough numbers of Mersad systems in short time.maybe project of mobilizing them needs more time and costs.
-----
http://www.mashreghnews.ir/fa/news/63910

This is the article about instalation of new missiles on S-200. Other modification on S-200 have been mentioned on this article. One of them is "Mobility" of S-200.

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وي با بيان اين‌كه در تمام بخش‌هاي S200 تغييرات فراواني ايجاد كرده‌ايم، افزود: سيستم S200 به صورت لامپي بود، ولي در حال حاضر از تكنولوژي نيمه‌ هادي در آن استفاده شده و در بخش‌هاي پردازش، فرستنده‌ها و گيرنده‌ها، جنگال ( جنگ الكترونيك)‌ و تحرك‌پذيري آن تغييرات عمده‌اي اعمال شده است و به جرات مي‌توان گفت كه S200 ديگر S200 نيست.

Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 06:05:52 AM by M-ATF

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ir
Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
Iran calls Electro-optical systems on Mesbah-1 as "Safat-1 Tracking Electro-Optical System". It seems this system is an independent system that can be integerated with other air-defence systems.

http://www.aja.ir/portal/Home/ShowPage.aspx?Object=News&CategoryID=f7d36395-588c-496a-983f-379f6fcae43f&WebPartID=c997cbc2-e1fb-4ffc-9360-99122e25e385&ID=5b0bd0bc-4b7f-433b-a3d2-1c560e1b2f5b

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رژه تجهيزات و ادوات رزمي پدافند هوايي ارتش از مقابل جايگاه مراسم رژه


تجهيزات و ادوات رزمي پدافند هوايي ارتش هم اكنون از مقابل جايگاه رژه، عبور كردند.

به گزارش خبرنگار ارتش، تجهيزات رژه رونده قرارگاه پدافند هوايي خاتم الانبياء (ص) ارتش در مراسم رژه روز ارتش عبارت بودند از: دستگاه DSM 200، خودروي تاكتيكي فيبر نوري، خودروي ارتباطي سيار، خودروي ارتباطي ديد مستقيم، سامانه راداري نبو، سامانه راداري كاستا(كه يكي از پيشرفته تريت سامانه هاي راداري با فناوري روز دنيا در خصوص پوشش نقاط كور)، سامانه راداري مطلع الفجر (كه كاملا بومي و ملي بوده و با برد بالا و مجهز به فناوري روز دنيا است)، سامانه موشكي برد بلند و ارتفاع بالاي S200، سامانه موشكي هدايت شونده برد متوسط و پيشرفته هاگ، سامانه موشكي راپير ارتفاع كم پدافند زمين به هوا به منظور دفاع از پالايشگاه ها و ايستگاه هاي راداري و نقاط حساس در هرگونه شرايط آب و هوايي، سامانه بهينه شده كنترل آتش اسكاي گارد جهت مقابله با هرگونه تهاجم هوايي، سامانه ردياب الكترواپتيك صافات يك كه يكي از سامانه هاي پدافندي ارتفاع كم با بهره گيري از دوربينهاي آي آر جهت مقابله با كله اهداف هوايي ارتفاع كم، توپ 23 م.م بهينه شده 8 لول، خودروي رفع آلودگي درفش 7، سامانه اطلاعاتي الينت.


Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 06:23:51 AM by M-ATF

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Major (سرگرد)
Thanks.

The Sadat reminds me of the Sadid series made by IEI.

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ir
Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
Thanks.

The Sadat reminds me of the Sadid series made by IEI.

The correct spelling of it is SaFat.

but excuse me , Im not sure , is the electro-optical used on Mesbah-1 is the same Safat-1 or not. I guess it is.On mentioned article they named it as an independents system.
I think i have read somewhere about using Safat-1 alongside Samavat but i cant find it.and electro-optical system of Samavat and Mesbah-1 seems different

Electro-optical system used on Samavat:
Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 12:09:43 PM by M-ATF

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Major (سرگرد)
Here's some pictures that might help:

1) 2008 tour of IEI factory. I'm assuming this is a continuation of the Sadid series advertised by IEI on their website, possibly the 201T, since other Sadid-series surveillance devices were also seen during this show.

2) Here's the same system, or one very close to it in a more finished state, and mounted on a truck in IRIADF colors and paraded in conjunction with Oerlikon guns. It has a similar set-up to the Mesbah system, with the same type of traversing mechanisms and the way the EO devices are mounted on arms with a top and bottom mounting brackets.

3) On the left is the user interface from the surveillance device during the 2008 tour. On the right is the user interface for the Mesbah; very similar.

It could definitely be used with other AD equipment. For instance, we know the Mersad now operates in an optical channel as well. Ditto with the Shahab Thaqeb and the Oerlikons. This offers a compelling reason why it's independent of the radar trailer as well; it's a modular system which means it's not wedded to the Mesbah and can be shifted around as needed.
Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 08:04:08 AM by Ayyash

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ir
Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
Here's some pictures that might help:

2) Here's the same system, or one very close to it in a more finished state, and mounted on a truck in IRIADF colors and paraded in conjunction with Oerlikon guns. It has a similar set-up to the Mesbah system, with the same type of traversing mechanisms and the way the EO devices are mounted on arms with a top and bottom mounting brackets.

thanks Ayyash.
I guess your second picture is Safat-1, beacuse the article That I posted in reply #69 and talks about Safat-1, actually introduces equipments paraded last year.
Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 11:51:46 AM by M-ATF

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lb
1st lieutenant (ستوان یكم)
Is the optical system directly attached to Mesbah or is it separate?

I think that having a tracking system that is on a separate platform is not the simplest solution since you need then precision heading and positioning systems for the two platforms to point on that same moving target... This makes things complicated... While having an optical tracking system on the firing system makes things much more easier and more precise.. This leads me to think that the readar is just an aquisition radar...

(however having an optical system on the firing system means you will have pretty much vibrations)

Here is a link to a modeniued ZU 23...

http://www.evpu.sk/new/local/download_file.php?id=713

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