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..........

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Old School Bubba... the dude abides
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some data to go with the pictures that have been posted...




do have some questions...  now that Iran has TOR M1  are they going to replace the SA-6 when there is a large maneuver force deployed.

understand they (TOR M1) are protecting strategic sites...     

SA-6 still 20 -24 in Iran with 4-5 Straightflush radars?   I've seen them deployed in groups of two launchers and a radar... the Russians SA-6 Rgt had 5 btrys of 4 launchers and one radar; they would deploy in btry formations.

attached is a graphic created by Berry Beldam depicting all the vehicle associated with a Russian SA-6 Regiment...  as you can see there is a lot more vehicles supporting the SAM launchers...





Respectfully,
Simple Bubba

Peace to You and Yours...
Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 04:52:37 AM by Simple Bubba

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moores law driving force of innovation
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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
this is a great design we should improve it on our own or with china
Iran Khodro largest auto maker in larger middle east

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWwHIPoQdw8&list=UUMF4vfECnuAPAfW0s6lMpyg&index=1&feature=plcp

<a href="http://www.quickiqtest.net" title="IQ Test"><img src="http://www.quickiqtest.net/graphic/badges/sf114.gif" width="150" height="75" alt="IQ Test" border="0"></a><br>QuickIQTest.net - <a title="Quick IQ Test" href="http://www.quickiqtest.net">IQ Test</a>

this is the fixed video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn-T-5k0_4E&list=UUMF4vfECnuAPAfW0s6lMpyg&index=1

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"Kvadrat (SA-6)
Low- to Medium-Altitude
Self-Propelled SAM System Upgrade
Includes deliveries of 9M317E (SA-17) surface-to-air missiles"

from list of official Russian Military & dual-use deliveries to Iran since 2000, from the Moscow Defense Brief
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/iranian-question/48529-russian-military-deliveries-iran-since-2000-a.html

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Old School Bubba... the dude abides
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Private (E-2) (سرباز دوم)
Google Earth shows two SA-6 batteries deployed near Natanz Nuclear Facility...

in the past I've seen probally two launchers and one straightflush deployed with maneuver units...

here we see how they are deployed near a strategic asset. (geoloc on bottom of image)


there are also several SA-15 in this area
Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 04:53:08 AM by Simple Bubba

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Freeloader (اش خور)
Where are you quoting that from?

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Old School Bubba... the dude abides
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didnt start new topic...  info all still good.

so its been a while and I was thinking...

 :think:

has doctrine changed for SA-6 systems?    ... now that Iran has TOR-M1s...

are they now used for point defense?  back when Iran deployed to Afgan border around Mashhad there were SA-6 s deployed with the ground units I think and deployments in large exercises of ground units...   and since it was designed to support ground units is this still its mission...  or is TOR-M1 filling this roll/mission... or are they both doing strategic point defense and tactical support roll/mission...  strategic point defense and in times of crisis deploying with ground forces?    :think:

and hows this fit in with the announce new air defense structure

http://www.iranmilitaryforum.net/air-defences/commander-a-new-ad-structure-underway/

your thoughts?  :)

here is a image of a btry (Oct 2011Google Earth) set up in a typical 4 launchers and a straightflush radar... (strategic point defense of a nuke related  facility)

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ir
Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
"Kvadrat (SA-6)
Low- to Medium-Altitude
Self-Propelled SAM System Upgrade
Includes deliveries of 9M317E (SA-17) surface-to-air missiles"

from list of official Russian Military & dual-use deliveries to Iran since 2000, from the Moscow Defense Brief
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/iranian-question/48529-russian-military-deliveries-iran-since-2000-a.html


9M317E missiles are valuable stuff in hands of Iranians, If the could reverse engineer it.
It has been always a question to me, If Iran reverse engineer systems like Tor-M1 (at least missiles of them), Does Iran announce it officially? Can it (production without having license) cause problems with Russia?


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Master Sergeant (گروهبان)
guess what this is ?



भारत माता की जय


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Private (سرباز عادى)
This is indian indegenous air defence system "Akash" , somehow resembling SA 6. Possesion  of such system , vould be a great for Iran, or at least it's PESA radar.

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Master Sergeant (گروهبان)
Its design is based on SA6 but its internal system are far better.

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Private (سرباز عادى)
Wow I didn't realize SA-6 missiles had a dual propulsion system! I wonder how that affects its range and end-game maneuverability compared to other missiles of similar size. And why wasn't this solution adopted in subsequent models?

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au
Chief Master Sergeant (استوار)
Maximum altitude of SA-6 is only 14 kilometers.

Not good enough compared to S-300.

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ir
Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
Maximum altitude of SA-6 is only 14 kilometers.

Not good enough compared to S-300.


Max. altitude of 9M317 missiles is 25 km (and 50 km range).
Of course SA-6 or SA-17 isn't designed as an alternative to S-300 too.

I'm waiting to hear more detail news about "Mehrab" missile, if specification of it is really similar to SM-2 (RIM-66C), it is really great missile (75km range, 25 km altitude and 3.5 mach speed). The only announced feature of Mehrab is 40 nm range (75km) by Iran's TV.

Even if it is a RIM-66A (SM-1), performance of it (just the rocket not the whole system)  is similar to Akash : 32 km range (30 km for Akash), 19.8 km (18km for Akash) altitude and 3.5 mach speed.

I think Iran hasn't built whole system including new radar and fire control systems and launcher for Mehrab missile yet. I guess it will be integrated with new radar and fire control system of Jamaran frigate. Launcher of SA-6 is good choice for building a launcher for Mehrab based on it.



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au
Chief Master Sergeant (استوار)
Max. altitude of 9M317 missiles is 25 km (and 50 km range).
Of course SA-6 or SA-17 isn't designed as an alternative to S-300 too.

Alright. 9M317 has sufficient altitude.

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en
Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
lets just wait for bavar 373.

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Private 1st Class (سرباز یكم)
does iran have the capability to reverse engineer it? if yes, why dont they?
And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. Quran (3:103)

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Brother Skylark
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Like M-ATF says, Kub and BUK are not alternatives of, but are meant to be used with S-300. Modern set a la Russia would be: S-300/400 + BUK + Pantsir/TOR + Igla/ZU-23-2/NSV.
I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I found Him not. I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was there. I entered the mountain cave of Hira and then went as far as Qandhar but God I found not. With set purpose I fared to the summit of Mount Caucasus and found there only 'anqa's habitation. Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; God was not there even. Turning to philosophy I inquired about him from ibn Sina but found Him not within his range. I fared then to the scene of the Prophet's experience of a great divine manifestation only a "two bow-lengths' distance from him" but God was not there even in that exalted court. Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was nowhere else.

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Brother Skylark
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Kubs were already largely useless by mid 1980s. During the conflicts of 1990s the hits scored by them were random at best. And now it is 2012.

does iran have the capability to reverse engineer it? if yes, why dont they?

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Private 1st Class (سرباز یكم)
SA-6 is a old System. I hope iran improoved specially the electronic warfare capacities of exactly tis system. if not they will be toasted. They were even replaced by this system: http://www.iranmilitaryforum.net/air-defences/sa-11-technical-readout/


And eveny this system is very old.

SA-6 Was first very succsessful in October war in Israel vs egypt/syria. But at the end of the war israelis found ways to trick this system. So you see...Israelis already have experience with this system.
I try to give INFORMATIVE and HELPFUL posts on wich WE ALL can LEARN , maybe with no FUNNY videos or NICE pictures but with a CONSTRUCTIVE CONTENT,  RESPECT & FRIENDSHIP.
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Report about this System

All Informations fro this page: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2K12-Kvadrat.html

The 2K12 Kub Surface to Air Missile system was developed for PVO-SV (Soviet Army Air Defence) and other Warpac Armies to perform a role analogous to that of the S-125 / SA-3 Goa in the service of the PVO. As such it was to supplement the larger and longer ranging 2K11 Krug / SA-4 Ganef with  low altitude coverage. Design objectives were similar but more ambitious than those for the S-125 / SA-3 Goa: destruction of aircraft at speeds between 420 m/s to 600 m/s (820 KTAS to 1,200 KTAS), at altitudes between 100 to 200 m (~300 to 600 ft AGL) and 5 to 7 km (16,4 kft to 23 kft), at ranges of up to 20 km (~11 NMI), with a single shot Pk of 0.7.

Development was authorised in 1958, with the system design assigned to what is now the Tikhomirov NIIP, and the missile design to what is now Vympel. The design was to be self propelled and highly mobile, like the 2K11 Krug / SA-4 Ganef, but using a lightweight tracked chassis similar to that used by the ZSU-23/4P Shilka SPAAG.

The ambitious specifications and the use of immature technology, such as the Continuous Wave (CW) semi-active homing missile seeker, and solid propellant ramjet sustainer powerplant, resulted in a troublesome and protracted development process. Problems with the seeker and the powerplant resulted in numerous test failures, with the design only achieving IOC in 1967-1968, a decade after the launch of the project. Production continued until 1983, when the 9K37 Buk / SA-11 Gadfly replaced it in production.

The design concept was for a single self-propelled 1S91 engagement radar system, with an integrated acquisition radar, controlling a group of four 2P25 series Transporter Erector Launcher (TEL) vehicles, each with three 3M9 series missile rounds. This battery structure would be supported by several 2T7 transloader/transporters, carried on the ZiL-157 truck.

The 1S91 engagement radar system used two stacked turrets, the lower of which mounted the acquisition radar, and the upper the fine tracking and CW illuminator radar. This allowed the system to acquire targets and perform coarse tracking with the acquistion radar, and then perform fine tracking and illumination with the second radar. This provided much greater autonomy compared to the 2K11 Krug / SA-4 Ganef which like the PVO systems, required a separate acquistion radar and datalinks to cue the engagement radar.

A number of variants were developed over the production life of the system.

The first of these was the 2K12M Kub M1, which included a greater engagement envelope,  a missile seeker with better ability to defeat seduction countermeasures, the capability to interrupt radar emissions in order to evade AGM-45 Shrike ARMs, and support for an ARM decoy. It was initially deployed in 1973.

In 1976, the 2K12M3 Kub M3 was introduced, with further incremental improvements against the M1 variant, especially in missile speed and a cited capability to defeat an 8G target.


Vympel 3M9 / 9M9 Surface to Air Missile

While the long range ramjet 2K11 Krug / SA-4 Ganef has direct Western equivalents in the contemporary ramjet Bendix RIM-8 Talos, Bristol Bloodhound and Armstrong Whitworth Sea Slug, no such equivalent exists for the 2K12 Kub / SA-6 Gainful system. In terms of airframe and propulsion configuration, the nearest equivalents are the 3M80 Moskit / Sunburn and Kh-31 Krypton supersonic anti-ship missile.

The 3M9 missile design introduced the first solid propellant ramjet engine in a Soviet missile, resulting in a missile with superior range performance to its conventional solid rocket competitors, as the missile did not need to carry the mass of the full oxidiser component of the propellant.



Above, below, 3M9ME Gainful - Agat 1SB4ME monopulse CW SARH seeker. Note the polarisation screen over the reflector and the unique feed arrangement with matching stubs. This antenna arrangement is retained by later 3M37/38/317 / SA-11/17 Gadlfy/Grizzly series missile seekers



The 1S91 fully mobile engagement radar system comprises two independently steerable radar systems. The lower 1S11 with a paraboloid section antenna and stacked feeds is used to acquire and track multiple targets in azimuth and elevation. The upper 1S31 is used for precision target tracking and illumination of targets for semi-active missile homing guidance.


bove, below, 3M9ME-UR (Uchebno-Razreznaya) cutaway training round. Note the ramjet inlet structures and the compressed air lines. Refer cutaway index below


The nose of the missile houses the Agat designed 1SB4M CW semi-active homing coherent dual plane monopulse seeker, which employs a parabolic section reflector antenna which produces monopulse sum and pitch/yaw difference signals. The seeker also uses the difference in Doppler between the illuminator carrier frequency and backscatter from the target to estimate the closure rate between the missile and target. An adaptive tunable narrowband filter is claimed to be used to reject clutter. The seeker is analogue and in addition to producing pitch/yaw commands for the autopilot, it activates the proximity fuse.

Trial shots performed by the UK on a test range, using a 2K12 Kub / SA-6 system captured in Africa, were reported to have resulted in remarkably high accuracy against drone targets.

Early variants of the 1SB4 seeker would acquire the target while the missile was on the rail, but the later 2K12M3/3M9M3 seeker could acquire the target post launch, permitting the missile to be launched before CW illumination is initiated. A variant of the P-nav control law is employed.

Due to the absence of seeker cooling, the missile seeker can be powered up on the launch rail for 5 to 10 minutes before it overheats and must be powered down to cool off. Training emulator rounds have characteristic cooling fins on the seeker section for this reason.

The 3E27 CW  two channel radio proximity fuse will nominally trigger at a 30 m distance from the target, using antennas on the sides of the fuselage.
The 3N12 57 kg blast-fragmention warhead is mounted behind the fuse.



The 1SB6M autopilot uses a gyro and accelerometer package, and generates steering commands for actuators which move the cruciform wings. Electrical power is produced by a turbine driven generator, fed from a tank of compressed air.

Two umbilicals connect the missile to the launch rail, these are used to initialise the missile and power the seeker prelaunch, and monitor missile status and condition.

The centre and aft sections of the missile fuselage are mostly occupied with the solid propellant charges for the propulsion system.

The aft fuselage contains the annular solid propellant first stage booster, with a launch mass of ~172 kg and a length of 1.7 metres, using VIK-2 propellant. The igniter initiates a burn along the central 5.4 cm dia. cavity. The engine has burn duration of about 3 to 6 seconds and accelerates the missile from 0 to ~ Mach 1.5. Once the booster has burned out, it becomes the combustion chamber / nozzle for the solid propellant rocket ramjet. Four symmetrically placed air inlets feed into this chamber. Frangible fibreglass covers are used to prevent air ingestion prior to sustainer ignition.

The centre fuselage contains the gas generator fuel charge for the solid propellant ramjet operation. The 9D16K sustainer solid gas generator charge comprising 67 kg of LK-6TM reducing propellant is ignited and the hot gas discharge vents into the combustion chamber, where it is mixed with air to burn and generate sustainer thrust. Burn duration is ~20 seconds, during which the missile accelerates to a peak velocity of ~2.8 Mach. Russian sources claim that the sustainer cannot be throttled and as a result this limits choices in missile trajectories.

The cruciform tails mount the missile transponder antennas, and include additional trailing edge controls. All controls are pneumatically actuated.

Quote
The final 2K12M4 Kub M4 variant was a hybridised 1978 design, with the 1S91M3 radar system being capable of controlling the 2P25M3 and SA-11 9A38 TELs and guiding the 3M9 and SA-11 9M38 missiles. The 9A38 TEL variant was also capable of carrying the 3M9 missile and providing terminal tracking and illumination using the 9S35 Fire Dome radar on the TEL.

Export variants, usually marketed under the name 2K12E Kvadrat, appeared in the Middle East following the War of Attrition. The combat debut of the 2K12 / SA-6 was during the Yom Kippur war of 1973. The superior low altitude performance of the weapon, and its new CW semi-active missile seeker resulted in a much higher success rate compared to the earlier S-75 / SA-2 Guideline and S-125 / SA-3 Goa systems. While exact losses continue to be disputed, around 40 aircraft are usually cited as lost to SAM shots, and the 2K12 / SA-6 proved most effective of the three weapons.
 
The 2K12 Kub/Kvadrat / SA-6 Gainful is a fully mobile system, capable of shooting and scooting in 5 minutes. The system was however often deployed from fixed revetments during Middle Eastern conflicts.

The system never repeated its initial success in subsequent conflicts, in part because examples were captured and analysed during the 1970s and 1980s. The US widely deployed the ALQ-162 Compass Sail CW jammer specifically to defeat this system. Conflicts in which the weapon was known to have been used include the Angolan intervention by Cuba, the Chad conflict, the 1982 Israeli invasion of Southern Lebanon, the Desert Storm and subsequent Northern/Southern Watch operations, and the 1999 Allied Force campaign.




he P-40/1S12 Long Track S-band acquisition radar is often cited as the mobile acquisition component in Kub/Kvadrat SAM batteries, although its primary purpose was supporting the SA-4 Ganef system. It uses a modified tank chassis to provide high cross country mobility. The antenna stows flat on the roof of the vehicle. Eight stacked beams are used for heightfinding.





Late model P-19 Flat Face D acquisition radar. The Flat Face and Squat Eye were frequently used as acquisition radars for groups of 2K12 / SA-6 batteries, especially in the Middle East.

Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 10:31:21 PM by Kaman99

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Lieutenant General (سپهبد)
Quote
SA-6 Was first very succsessful in October war in Israel vs egypt/syria. But at the end of the war israelis found ways to trick this system. So you see...Israelis already have experience with this system.


One thing is for sure,the Iranian SAM-6 is not the same old hardware. This is a fact especially knowing that IRIAF had much experience with this SAM during Iran/Iraq war and are thoroughly aware of its strength and weaknesses.


Catsoo

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ru
Private 1st Class (سرباز یكم)
As I noted above, the Iranian SA-6 had been modernized in the mid-2000s with Russian help. After upgrading the SAM SA-6 is a very dangerous weapon, even in modern war.

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Private 1st Class (سرباز یكم)

One thing is for sure,the Iranian SAM-6 is not the same old hardware. This is a fact especially knowing that IRIAF had much experience with this SAM during Iran/Iraq war and are thoroughly aware of its strength and weaknesses.


Catsoo
Oh yeah this is true. Specially the computers and electronic Systems are much more capable and the radar at this time and can do much more efficient calculations.

Even a home PC today is much more capable.
Computers at this time were real monsters haha

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au
Chief Master Sergeant (استوار)
Modern set a la Russia would be: S-300/400 + BUK + Pantsir/TOR + Igla/ZU-23-2/NSV.

You forgot SA-19 Tunguska equipped with Anti Aircraft Gun and short range Surface to Air Missiles (SAMs).

Russian Tunguska is similar to Iranian Mesbah-1 because it can target and destroy US Cruise Missiles.
Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 05:13:39 AM by Numbers

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