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Author Topic: Iran to build two aircraft engines in the next 3-5 years  (Read 2193 times)

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Offline AK

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Iran to build two aircraft engines in the next 3-5 years
« on: February 28, 2011, 10:08:04 PM »
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I was reading Mashregh News and saw the following news:

** ساخت موتور هواپیما در پنج سال آینده
وی با بیان اینکه دربخش طراحی و ساخت موتور هواپیما هم از دهه اخیر شروع به کار کردیم، افزود: درهمکاری مشترک با تعدادی از دانشگاه های داخلی درحال تولید دو تیپ موتورهواپیما هستیم که این موتورها علاوه بر کاربرد در صنایع هوایی در انتقال خطوط گازو نیروگاه های زیر 20 مگاوات هم کاربرد دارد .
منطقی با اشاره به حمایت های وزارت علوم ، تحقیقات و فناوری و وزارت صنایع و معادن از این پروژه ،ابراز امیدواری کرد طی سه تا پنج سال آینده این موتورها عرضه شود.

http://www.mashreghnews.ir/NSite/FullStory/News/?Id=31686


Manocher Manteghi mentions that Iran is making two aircraft engines in the next 3 to 5 years. The engines can be utilized in other industries such as a 20 MW powerplant.

From the power rating (27,000 HP), one of them should be a large gas turbine/jet engine.
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Offline Eagle2009

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Re: Iran to build two aircraft engines in the next 3-5 years
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2011, 04:49:01 AM »
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Hmm..very interesting indeed.

That would suggest they are talking about a Gas Turbine of some sort which is being developed which is to be based on a turbojet/turbofan engine. It is also possible they could be talking about a turboprop engine(s) but I think a jet engine is more likely.

These leaves a lot of possibilities. For example the RR Olympus engines we have discussed in other threads was developed from an aircraft engine that had an original thrust of 9750lbs but which model of the Olympus was the basis for the Marine variant I dont know but if your numbers are right (27,000hp) means a pretty powerful engine.

Perhaps a TF30 or RD-33 based engine?

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Offline Eagle2009

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Re: Iran to build two aircraft engines in the next 3-5 years
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2011, 05:27:22 AM »
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AK,

So does the report say Iran is designing two engines that will produce roughly 27,000hp or just one that does? I ask because it seems odd to design two engines with similar power.

Regardless after some more research, I think we are talking about a pretty powerful engine indeed, likely more powerful than the TF30 or RD-33.

For example, the GE LM2500 family of marine Gas Turbines produce between 21,500- 33,600hp depending on when they were built. This engine was in turn developed from the venerable CF6 turbofan engine used in numerous civilian aircraft since the late 60's.

Now, from my research the CF6 formed the basis for several different Gas Turbines (LM2500, LM6000). In particular the basic LM2500 was developed from the CF6-6. Now we dont know exactly what this Iranian engines basis is, but from looking at the CF6/LM2500 we are talking about a very powerful engine.

Now this is just a guess, but if the CF6 is any indicator, we are talking about an engine that could produce over 40,000lbs of thrust! This is actually too large of an engine (dimensionally) for use in any feasible combat aircraft (other than support aircraft like tankers/transports) but would be very useful for use in civilian aircraft.
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Offline M-ATF

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Re: Iran to build two aircraft engines in the next 3-5 years
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2011, 05:53:55 AM »
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some monthes ago Mantegi has announced they are working on three turbine engine, light , medium , heavy. he stated their light engine will be ready till the end of the Iranian year (means now) , medium will be ready during 3 years and heavy engine will be ready after 5 years.

this time he didnt say anything about to that light engine,
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Offline M-ATF

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Re: Iran to build two aircraft engines in the next 3-5 years
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2011, 06:31:15 AM »
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Quote from: Eagle2009 on March 01, 2011, 05:27:22 AM
AK,

So does the report say Iran is designing two engines that will produce roughly 27,000hp or just one that does? I ask because it seems odd to design two engines with similar power.



he doesnt indicate directly to the trust of the engine , he just says it can be used in power planst with less than 20 MW power ,

he talked about design and production passenger aircrafts too, he stated:
" now we are producing 52 seat passenger aircrafts, in the next step we have a program to produce a 100 seat passenger aircraft jointly with one or two another foreign countries, and in the third step we should reach to the capability to start designing 150 seat passenger aircraft by ourself.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 06:37:46 AM by M-ATF »
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Offline Eagle2009

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Re: Iran to build two aircraft engines in the next 3-5 years
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2011, 07:22:31 AM »
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Ok so we arent certain about the actual power of these engines but if they are related to the Wide-body aircraft Iranian officials have talked about before then my guess about the power could still be very close. Widebody aircraft normally use engines like the CF6 or more powerful.

Now if I remember properly Iranian officials have talked about 150 passenger aircraft and a Wide-body aircraft but technically they cant be the same aircraft since traditionally wide-body aircraft are supposedly to have at least 200 passengers. The difference is best illustrated this way, a Airbus A320 carries roughly 150 passengers depending on variant whereas the Tu-204/214 airliner Iran is supposed to be license assembly sometime in the near future carries over 200 passengers and are considered a widebody. The difference between the two aircraft is not just seating capacity but in engines. The Airbus engines produce roughly 10,000kg of thrust whereas the Russian engines the Tupolev uses produce more than 16,000kg.

So I personally think when Iranian officials talk about a 200 passenger airliners they are likely referring to the Russian airliners that are supposed to be built in Iran soon but the 150 passenger design is likely a domestic concept of some sort.

So perhaps, the two engines are related to the two larger airliner concepts?
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Offline AK

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Re: Iran to build two aircraft engines in the next 3-5 years
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2011, 07:27:48 AM »
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Quote from: Eagle2009 on March 01, 2011, 05:27:22 AM
AK,

So does the report say Iran is designing two engines that will produce roughly 27,000hp or just one that does? I ask because it seems odd to design two engines with similar power.

Regardless after some more research, I think we are talking about a pretty powerful engine indeed, likely more powerful than the TF30 or RD-33.

For example, the GE LM2500 family of marine Gas Turbines produce between 21,500- 33,600hp depending on when they were built. This engine was in turn developed from the venerable CF6 turbofan engine used in numerous civilian aircraft since the late 60's.

Now, from my research the CF6 formed the basis for several different Gas Turbines (LM2500, LM6000). In particular the basic LM2500 was developed from the CF6-6. Now we dont know exactly what this Iranian engines basis is, but from looking at the CF6/LM2500 we are talking about a very powerful engine.

Now this is just a guess, but if the CF6 is any indicator, we are talking about an engine that could produce over 40,000lbs of thrust! This is actually too large of an engine (dimensionally) for use in any feasible combat aircraft (other than support aircraft like tankers/transports) but would be very useful for use in civilian aircraft.


He doesn't say if both of them are that powerful. What he says is that they can be used in electricity power plants of up to 20 MW (which is ~27,000 hp) as gas turbine. So I think it is safe to say that one of them is that powerful and the other one is less powerful.

Maybe the less powerful one is a TV-3 (2466 hp), which will be used in both helicopters and small commercial airplanes (IRAN-140).
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Offline Eagle2009

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Re: Iran to build two aircraft engines in the next 3-5 years
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2011, 07:35:12 AM »
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Except that I dont think power stations use engines as small as the TV3. That and Iran has already claimed to be able to produce the TV3 or very close to doing so. Could be though I don't know.
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Offline AK

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Re: Iran to build two aircraft engines in the next 3-5 years
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2011, 07:46:19 AM »
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That's probably correct as for TV-3 kinda power a diesel engine would be more appropriate, which Iran produces a number of them(thanks to M-ATF for the related links). The reason I suggested that the second one could be TV3 is that from the text it is not clear if both engines will be used in power plants; hence, I thought maybe he is referring to the more powerful engine when he mentions their other uses.
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Offline M-ATF

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Re: Iran to build two aircraft engines in the next 3-5 years
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2011, 10:29:54 AM »
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i think they are heavier turbofans or Turbojets not TV3 turboprop
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Offline Eagle2009

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Re: Iran to build two aircraft engines in the next 3-5 years
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2011, 10:37:24 AM »
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I do have to correct something I said earlier. I used the Tu-204 as an example of a wide body aircraft but I did so in error. The Tupolev is considered a Narrow-body airliners though on the larger end of the class. Traditionally wide-body aircraft carry between 200-600 passengers but clearly this line is only a guideline where the Tu-204 is large enough passenger wise to be considered one but whose fuselege is smaller than most wide-body aircraft. However the comparison of the engines used is still quite valid.
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Offline Eagle2009

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Re: Iran to build two aircraft engines in the next 3-5 years
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2011, 08:55:27 AM »
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I stumbled on to some interesting figures for you guys. I was doing some research on F-4 and J79 upgrades and stumbled on to this.

Apparently GE (who makes the J79) makes an industrial Gas Turbine version of the J79 called the LM1500 which has an output of 10MW.

Considering Iran's experience with the J79 its possible a Gas Turbine engine based on it could be one of the engines they are talking about.

Another possibility is a Gas Turbine version of the TF30 engine as well.
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Offline M-ATF

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Re: Iran to build two aircraft engines in the next 3-5 years
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2011, 12:28:32 PM »
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Quote from: Eagle2009 on March 03, 2011, 08:55:27 AM
I stumbled on to some interesting figures for you guys. I was doing some research on F-4 and J79 upgrades and stumbled on to this.

Apparently GE (who makes the J79) makes an industrial Gas Turbine version of the J79 called the LM1500 which has an output of 10MW.

Considering Iran's experience with the J79 its possible a Gas Turbine engine based on it could be one of the engines they are talking about.

Another possibility is a Gas Turbine version of the TF30 engine as well.
Gas Turbine Version of J79 and TF30?

Turbojet and Turbofans are Gas Turbin engines, in fact Gas Turbine is a family of some different types of engines like Turbofans, Turbojets, turboprop. gas turbine is a genral term, so i think gas turbine version of a turbojet or turbofan doesnt mean.

first goal of Iran for production these engines is using them in aviation industries, and it seems both of them are Turbofans.

they can recover output heat of exhaust for Industrial and power generation purposes.

Manteqi had stated there are three types of engines that they are working on them, light (will be ready until the end of this iranian year) , medium and heavy.

I cant determine power of heavy , medium and light engines exactly, it is relative.and i dont know they want to produce engines for passenger aircrafts (high bypass ratio turbofans) or for fighters (low bypass ratio)?

but I guess the medium engine will be used for fighter and maybe they want to produce a heavy engine for a passenger aircraft.

We have claims of Iranian about new gen. of TF-30 engines for F-14's. so it is possible to count Modified TF-30 as one of their engines. i think TF-30 is a medium engine, but we dont know exactly when Manteqi says heavy engine , he means what amount of power and thrust?

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Offline AminCo

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Re: Iran to build two aircraft engines in the next 3-5 years
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2011, 03:23:40 PM »
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great, some thing popped up in my mind, do we ever thing about a bomber plane with heavy engine?
like B-52, or at least convert normal heavy plane to a bomber?
indeed Iran have a project of overhauling its C-130H [Hercules]
so what about including the T56(-A-15) turboprops upgraded as what the refer to as heavy engine, Maximum power output: 4,350 shp (3,915 kW)
while brother M-ATF mention about Gas Turbin engines
I like to put some picture of the 3 model mentioned above

Turbofan


Turbojet


Turboprop
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Offline Lur

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Re: Iran to build two aircraft engines in the next 3-5 years
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2011, 04:25:42 PM »
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the light engine is most likely a version of the J85
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Offline Eagle2009

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Re: Iran to build two aircraft engines in the next 3-5 years
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2011, 08:30:08 PM »
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Lur,

I dont think thats likely since I would be shocked if Iran can't build the J85 right now. It is nowhere near as complicated as larger engines. The fact Iran has not claimed to be able to do so likely more as the do with the fact that at the moment they dont need new J85s except for replacing older engines on F-5s.

M-ATF,

Indeed Gas Turbine is a largely generic term for instance the LM1500 which is an industrial version of the J79 uses different fuels than other Gas Turbines. The LM1500 can actually be fuelled by natural gas or diesel whereas Gas Turbine engines derived from Turboprops are normally fuelled by gasoline. So I wonder if the best way to classify Gas Turbines is by the fuel they use?

But I just suggested a Gas Turbine version of the J79 because its output of 10MW is in the range suggested by the original article.

But you are right they are way too many possibilities at this point I think. These engines could be for airliners, combat aircraft or both but all we know is that one or both of these new engines can be used in a 20MW powerplant.
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Offline Catsoo

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Re: Iran to build two aircraft engines in the next 3-5 years
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2011, 05:47:00 PM »
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