Author Topic: Vahidi: new generations of Iranian fighters are on the way (Read 4769 times)

M-ATF · « **on:** February 20, 2012, 08:03:30 AM »

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سردار وحیدی در جمع خبرنگاران عنوان کرد
نسل‌ جدید جنگنده‌های ایرانی در راه است

خبرگزاری فارس: وزیر دفاع با اشاره به اقدامات در دست اجرا برای به روز رسانی هواپیماهای جنگنده کشور گفت: سعی داریم با ارتقاء جنگنده‌هایمان، آنها را به نسل‌های بالاتر ببریم.
خبرگزاری فارس: نسل‌ جدید جنگنده‌های ایرانی در راه است

به گزارش خبرنگار دفاعی خبرگزاری فارس، سردار احمد وحیدی وزیر دفاع و پشتیبانی نیروهای مسلح در حاشیه یازدهمین کنفرانس انجمن هوافضای ایران در جمع خبرنگاران در خصوص حضور کاندیداهای متعدد در انتخابات آتی مجلس شورای اسلامی گفت: انتخابات یکی از نمادهای مهم مردم سالاری است و این حجم از کاندیدا و وجود لیست‌های مختلف نشانه همین مردم سالاری در جمهوری اسلامی است و هر کسی می‌تواند در انتخابات شرکت کند.

وی با بیان اینکه حداکثر مشارکت مردم را در انتخابات آتی خواهیم داشت، اظهار داشت: مردم با توجه به معیارهای گفته شده و اطلاعاتی که دارند انتخاب اصلح را خواهند داشت.

وزیر دفاع در خصوص هواپیماهای نسل چهارم گفت: این هواپیماها با ارتقاهایی که روی آنها انجام می‌شود در دسته‌های +1 و +2 دسته‌بندی می‌شوند و ما می‌خواهیم با ارتقاء جنگنده هایمان، آنها را به نسل‌های بالاتر ببریم.

وحیدی با اشاره به دستاوردهای حوزه فضایی تصریح کرد: ‌در سال آینده ماهواره‌ای را در مدار 500 کیلومتر قرار می‌دهیم. این مدار بهترین مکان برای حضور در مدار لئو است و ایران برنامه‌هایی برای حضور در مدارهای بالاتر نیز دارد.

وزیر دفاع همچنین اعلام کرد: در بخش فضایی و حوزه موشکی جزء قدرت‌های مهم دنیا قلمداد می‌شویم.

وی در پایان در خصوص در اختیار گذاشتن این علوم به دیگر کشورها گفت: به هر کسی که از ما درخواست کند، به خصوص کشورهای اسلامی و دوست حاضریم کمک کنیم.

http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13901201000435

M-ATF · « **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2012, 08:10:50 AM »

The title I used for this topic is the same title of Fars report. But In fact It doesnt mean production of new fighters.
Vahidi DM of Iran says: we are trying to promote generation of our fighters by upgrading our fighters.
He said about 4th gen fighters: these fighters according to their upgrades are categorized in 1+ and 2+ (4+ and 4++) categories and we are going to promote our fighters to higher generations by upgrading them.

My experience says when Vahidi talks about anything we can usually rely on him and his promise.

Aspahbod · « **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2012, 08:22:59 AM »

Quote from: M-ATF on February 20, 2012, 08:10:50 AM

My experience says when Vahidi talks about anything we can usually rely on him and his promise.

True. But his speech is very general. He may mean that we want to upgrade our F-5 and F-7s with Fly-by-wire systems. While this is good, our planes are 40+ years old and upgrading them doesn't really make differences in their performance against modern planes. We "need" brand new planes.

M-ATF · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2012, 09:06:31 AM »

Unfortunately he didn't say, does he mean they are going to upgrade our fighters to 4+ and 4++ levels

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Fighter Generations

The definition of fighter generations has long been subject to debate. However, most agree that the generations break down along these broad lines:

Generation 1: Jet propulsion (F-80, German Me 262).

Generation 2: Swept wings; range-only radar; infrared missiles (F-86, MiG-15).

Generation 3: Supersonic speed; pulse radar; able to shoot at targets beyond visual range (“Century Series” fighters such as F-105; F-4; MiG-17; MiG-21).

Generation 4: Pulse-doppler radar; high maneuverability; look-down, shoot-down missiles (F-15, F-16, Mirage 2000, MiG-29).

Generation 4+: High agility; sensor fusion; reduced signatures (Eurofighter Typhoon, Su-30, advanced versions of F-16 and F/A-18, Rafale).

Generation 4++: Active electronically scanned arrays; continued reduced signatures or some “active” (waveform canceling) stealth; some supercruise (Su-35, F-15SE).

Generation 5: All-aspect stealth with internal weapons, extreme agility, full-sensor fusion, integrated avionics, some or full supercruise (F-22, F-35).

Potential Generation 6: extreme stealth; efficient in all flight regimes (subsonic to multi-Mach); possible “morphing” capability; smart skins; highly networked; extremely sensitive sensors; optionally manned; directed energy weapons.

http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2009/October%202009/1009fighter.aspx

http://theaviationist.com/2011/01/13/fighter-generations-comparison-chart/

M-ATF · « **Reply #4 on:** February 20, 2012, 10:06:09 AM »

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وزیر دفاع و پشتیبانی نیروهای مسلح، از پرتاب ماهواره طلوع و فجر در سال آینده خبر داد و گفت: با امکان مانور مداری که این ماهواره ها دارند، دستاورد بسیار ارزشمندی نصیب کشورمان می شود.

به گزارش واحد مرکزی خبر ، سردار سرتیپ وحیدی در یازدهمین کنفرانس انجمن هوافضای ایران افزود: قراردادن ماهواره در مدار ژئو (36 هزار کیلومتر)، از جمله برنامه های جمهوری اسلامی ایران است که به طور جدی آن را پیگیری می کنیم.

وی با اشاره به دستاوردهای بشر در حوزه هوا و فضا گفت: اکنون به همت جوانان و متخصصان کشورمان در حوزه موشکی جزء 10 کشور جهان هستیم و در حوزه ماهواره برها نیز در جمع 8 کشور برتر جهان قرار داریم.

وحیدی با اشاره به ساخت هواپیمای مسافربر ایران 140 گفت: در آینده نزدیک، هواپیمای گشت دریایی را نیز به پرواز درخواهیم آورد.

وی افزود: در ساخت موتورهای هوایی، اگر به نتیجه مطلوب برسیم، ساخت هواپیماهای داخلی به صورت صد درصد در کشورمان انجام خواهد شد.

وزیر دفاع گفت: جمهوری اسلامی ایران اکنون تولید کننده هواپیماهای جنگی است و طرح های متعدد دیگری را برای ساخت اینگونه هواپیماها در دستور کار دارد که نشانگر بالندگی و اعتماد به نفس و توانمندی دانشمندان کشورمان است.

وحیدی گفت: اکنون، حدود 110 هزار هواپیما که 36 هزار فروند آن نظامی و 19 هزار فروند تجاری است در جهان وجود دارد.

وزیر دفاع افزود: 2 تا 3 هزار ماهواره نیز در حوزه های مخابرات ، هواشناسی ، سنجش از راه دور ، نظامی و جاسوسی نیز در فضا وجود دارد که بر اساس سند چشم انداز 20 ساله ، ایران رقیب کشورهای برتر در این حوزه ها خواهد شد.

http://www.iribnews.ir/Default.aspx?Page=MainContent&news_num=326717

Ahmad Vahidi: if we reach to desired results in building aircraft engines, 100% of domestic aircrafts will be produced in Iran.
He added IRI is now producer of fighter aircrafts and has several other plans for production of such aircrafts.

M-ATF · « **Reply #5 on:** February 20, 2012, 11:17:00 AM »

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سردار وحيدي ادامه داد: در زمينه‌ي موتور هواپيماها نيز به پيشرفتهاي خوبي دست يافته‌ايم به گونه‌اي كه هم اكنون در حال بهره‌برداري از ميني‌موتورهاي جت بوده و براي طراحي و ساخت موتورهاي بزرگ مانند توربوجت و توربوفن‌ها برنامه‌هاي مختلفي در دستور كارداريم. همچنين توانمندي‌ها و پتانسيل‌هاي كشور نشان مي‌دهد كه مي‌توانيم در آينده در زمينه‌ي ارتقاي نسل هواپيماها در كشور و ساخت هواپيماهاي نسل چهارم گام برداريم.

full report:
http://isna.ir/ISNA/NewsView.aspx?ID=News-1953270&Lang=P

Vahidi:
In the field of aircraft engines we have reached good advances. Now we produces mini jet engines and have different programs on agenda for design and production of bigger turbofan and turbojet engines. Capabilities and potentials of counrty shows we take steps in the field of upgrade of generations of fighters [to higher generations] and production of fourth generation fighters.

shiageorgia · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2012, 01:09:25 PM »

It is very important to push in that direction. Without advandced engine production capabilities Iran can't be considered as really self-sufficient military power.

farbod · « **Reply #7 on:** February 20, 2012, 01:38:54 PM »

how long are we gonna upgrade?

? we need new figher jets ffs

Nonbarbari · « **Reply #8 on:** February 20, 2012, 02:07:40 PM »

Quote from: farbod on February 20, 2012, 01:38:54 PM

how long are we gonna upgrade?? we need new figher jets ffs

There is many thing we need. But let us take one step at a time..

M-ATF · « **Reply #9 on:** February 20, 2012, 04:20:55 PM »

Since this morning different news agencies released several reports about Vahidi remarks in aerospace conference that are slightly different than each other.

This is one of the last report that released by Fars that is one of the clearest and most complete reports:
http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13901201000642

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وی با بیان اینکه ایران تولید کننده هواپیمای جنگی است، تاکید کرد: البته طرح‌های متنوع دیگری را برای ساخت هواپیماهای جنگی و نظامی در دستور کار داریم.

وزیر دفاع افزود: غالب کشورهایی که شروع به هواپیماسازی کردند غیر از آمریکا و روسیه مابقی تحت لیسانس و با مشارکت یکدیگر کار می‌کنند. به عنوان مثال هند با روسیه، پاکستان با چین، اروپایی‌ها هم با هم کار می‌کند اما جمهوری اسلامی ایران امروز در غالب حوزه‌ها و اگر اقداماتش در حوزه موتورهای جت به موفقیت برسد، می‌توانیم بگوییم کاملا مستقل هواپیما می‌سازد.

وحیدی ادامه داد: ایران قسمت‌های مختلف هواپیما را ساخته و در حوزه موتور، مینی موتورهای ‌جت‌ را ساخته و ساخت توربو جت و توربو فن را در دستور کار دارد و هواپیماهایی در نسل بالاتر از نسل چهار که نسل +4 است را می‌سازد.

Vahidi says: Iran is a producer of fighter aircraft but Iran has another various designs and plans for production of military aircraft.
He added, except USA and Russia, most of other countries started production of [fighter] aircraft under license or by joint projects. For example India with Russia, Pakistan with China, European countries work together too. But we can say IR Iran produces [fighter] aircraft completely independently in all fields and if Iran's measures in the field of Jet engines succeed .

He continued: Iran has produced different parts of [fighter[ aircraft, and in the field of engine, Iran has produced mini jets, and has production of turbofans and turbojets on agenda and builds [fighter] aircraft in generations higher than fourth generation that is 4+ generation .

ahriman46 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 20, 2012, 04:33:29 PM »

they are gona upgrade the old F4, F5, F14, su 25, mig29 again..

there is not gona be any new fighters!

M-ATF · « **Reply #11 on:** February 20, 2012, 04:38:40 PM »

he talks about both upgrading and production of fighters. But what I understand from Vahidi statements is that we should still wait more few years to see Iranian fighter.
Even if Iran really is capable to upgrade our fighters to 4+ and 4++ gen. fighters it is a great work and I think in fact you should have the capability to produce fighters ( different important parts of fighters) to can upgrade current fighters to such levels.

Vahidi usually talks more realistic than other Iranian officials.

Emirzaad · « **Reply #12 on:** February 20, 2012, 08:30:12 PM »

Have faith in HESA ... 2 years ... alot better aircraft then Azaraksh , Saeghe will be there ... Remember how we have surprised the world with our frigate , submarine , satellites , missiles .... no other country in this world can even think of taking these strides in defense under circumstances that vatanam is facing for last 3 decades .

as for topic .... Azaraksh was first Gen of Hesa made Jet , Saeghe is 2nd Gen , Now the third will show up ....

in International standards , Azaraksh is 3rd Generation aircraft and so is Saeghe , though Saeghe cant be rated yet ... This new plane will be 4+ ...

Emirzaad · « **Reply #13 on:** February 20, 2012, 08:47:26 PM »

I guess Vahidi and Nasirzodeh have talked abt VTOL aircraft project ....

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9010175462

Numbers · « **Reply #14 on:** February 21, 2012, 04:21:03 AM »

Quote from: Emirzaad on February 20, 2012, 08:30:12 PM

Have faith in HESA ... 2 years ... alot better aircraft then Azaraksh , Saeghe will be there ...

in International standards , Azaraksh is 3rd Generation aircraft and so is Saeghe , though Saeghe cant be rated yet ... This new plane will be 4+ ...

HESA Shafaq is 5th generation Stealth Aircraft.

So what is a point in mentioning 4th generation Aircrafts? 4th generation can not compete against 5th generation.
Iran should build 5th generation (see picture below).

M-ATF · « **Reply #15 on:** February 21, 2012, 06:45:07 AM »

I think M-ATF design is good shortcut for Iran as a next fighter with low RCS, because they have already worked on it for few years. Design of it is not as modern and stealth as designs like F-35 and needs some modifications, (for example it needs redesign of nose for more stealthy and of course some other parts) , but obviously it is a low RCS design.

I have read in many articles that Shafagh is newer project than M-ATF and it was started after Russians left the M-ATF project, but M-ATF project was seen after Shafagh. Shafaq was seen in 2002 Kish air show, and M-ATF was shown in 2005 Kish air show and it was the last time we saw official displaying of them.

What I can see in images and read about specifications of Shafaq, Shafaq is a trainer or light multi-role fighter jet in the class of Yak-130 or L-159.

Interestingly I found this image in a Russian website with name of “Dorna-2”. You know Dorna is first gen. of Tazarve trainer jet .

Dorna:

Unlike Shafaq it seems M-ATF design is more suitable as an air superiority fighter. M-ATF design is closer design to design of this image of Vityaz 2000.

But it seems Vityaz 2000 is more evolved and stealth design than M-ATF. I read in an article that Russian offered this Vityaz2000 design to Indians too. Shafaq hasn't internal bays, I don't know M-ATF design has internal bays or not, But I have read that in Vityaz2000 designers considered internal weapons bays for it. Designs like EuroFighter and Rafale without internal bays are low RCS fighters with RCS around 0.05 to 0.1 m2 and 0.1 to 0.2 m2 respectively. So I think even without internal weapons bays, M-ATF have the potential to be a low RCS fighter even less than Eurofighter and Rafale.

I estimated dimensions of M-ATF based on this image, If d is 60-65 cm, length of M-ATF is around 16m with a more than 1 m diameter engine. It means it is almost in the same size of fighters like F-16.

the8march · « **Reply #16 on:** February 21, 2012, 09:25:52 AM »

Thanks for the info M-ATF,

it seems for me the russians have developed a hobby of designing aircrafts without building them

shiageorgia · « **Reply #17 on:** February 21, 2012, 02:48:48 PM »

These are one-engine models, I think twin-engine variants would be better, imho.

mustavaris · « **Reply #18 on:** February 21, 2012, 07:46:39 PM »

Long ago I read that the Iranian stealth plane should be taking off in 2008. The upgrade news are just upgrade news. Considering the fact that Iranian government claimed that they had designed a fifth generation fighter in 2009, these claims must be taken with grain of salt. More one reads about them, more claims and claims.. and a few mock ups.

What comes to Russian hobby... building advanced aircraft is like that: model after model..

This is an ok summary:

ZamZam · « **Reply #19 on:** February 21, 2012, 11:20:35 PM »

it does lookl ike vityaz.

ive editied picture a tiny bit so you can see outlines better.

M-ATF · « **Reply #20 on:** February 22, 2012, 05:34:58 AM »

Sina,
It's Shafaq (Images i put with the name of Dorna-2 and Shafaq) that has obvious differences with M-ATF and Vityaz2000 designs.

mustavaris
I think those claims about design of fifth gen. fighter relates to Sofreh-Mahi deisgn.
I have heard that M-ATF has been cancelled due to lack of engines. After Russia left joint project and Iran restarted new project based on that joint project with Russia, They needed engines of their design, They asked Russia to supply engine during visit of Putin of Iran, But Russia refused this request, and Iran cancelled the project.
Of course I don't know how much is this claim is credible but it is consistent with what Vahidi said during 11th aerospace conference, Now Vahidi says if we could produce our own engines we can produce our fighters.

But I agree with you on one point: We have heard many promises in the field of Air Force, but we haven't seen many things. I believe Iranian officials should promise less, But show more (when their projects are ready for unveiling and displaying). In other fields for example in the field of Ballistic missile, We don't hear any promise before unveiling anything, they always surprise us by their unveilings.

maydayfire · « **Reply #21 on:** February 22, 2012, 06:50:51 AM »

Quote from: M-ATF on February 22, 2012, 05:34:58 AM

In other fields for example in the field of Ballistic missile, We don't hear any promise before unveiling anything, they always surprise us by their unveilings.

The promises for Ballistic missiles were there but because they were fulfilled more often we tend to forget. it really has to do with ballistic missiles (or any other missiles) being a one-time only machine, meaning you don't re-use it like you do for a fighter Jet, thus they are easier to get results in. In the field of Aerospace, the famous motto "fake it, till you make it" has always been used in the past 100 years to get projects going and it is no different for Iran. In fact NASA officially used the motto "fake it, till you make it" during the years 1960-1969 from when they started to when they put a man on the moon.

mustavaris · « **Reply #22 on:** February 22, 2012, 05:06:30 PM »

I am not sure about that... http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=11056

"The Iranian Air Force commander also pointed out that the country successfully tested its stealth aircraft in the Iranian capital Tehran over the past few days."

What comes to this project, it looks quite clear to me that the Russian influence is heavy.. and their wihdrawal has had obvious consequences.

In any case, the engine problem is a big one. The Chicom regime has stolen, bought and bribed the whole world and after well over two decades they are finally fielding acceptable jet engine of the second best generation - and it seems to be of "acceptable" level- far behind what the Russians can field who are behind the best Western engines.

I would put it this way, if Iran is good enough to produce a decent and modern jet engine, they should have no issues with production of airframes and avionics.

Quote from: M-ATF on February 22, 2012, 05:34:58 AM

mustavaris
I think those claims about design of fifth gen. fighter relates to Sofreh-Mahi deisgn.
I have heard that M-ATF has been cancelled due to lack of engines. After Russia left joint project and Iran restarted new project based on that joint project with Russia, They needed engines of their design, They asked Russia to supply engine during visit of Putin of Iran, But Russia refused this request, and Iran cancelled the project.
Of course I don't know how much is this claim is credible but it is consistent with what Vahidi said during 11th aerospace conference, Now Vahidi says if we could produce our own engines we can produce our fighters.

IRIAF propaganda section is a joke indeed; they might be able to save their faces when dealing with tape worms with no memory, but not with the others. Besides claims after claims without anything anywhere, one has to acknowledge that they have not hesitated with their mock ups or F5 modifications when they have shown them.. They said that they were ready years ago, they say it now and they will say it again after a few years and we ain´t gonna see a flying 5th generation plane or anything resembling one.

The other branches have fared much better indeed.

Quote from: M-ATF on February 22, 2012, 05:34:58 AM

But I agree with you on one point: We have heard many promises in the field of Air Force, but we haven't seen many things. I believe Iranian officials should promise less, But show more (when their projects are ready for unveiling and displaying). In other fields for example in the field of Ballistic missile, We don't hear any promise before unveiling anything, they always surprise us by their unveilings.

mustavaris · « **Reply #23 on:** February 22, 2012, 05:09:44 PM »

I am in no way a specialist but this plane looks like it had common origin with many of the light aicraft plans the Russians had with added LO features-

Quote from: Sina on February 21, 2012, 11:20:35 PM

it does lookl ike vityaz.

ive editied picture a tiny bit so you can see outlines better.

Ich · « **Reply #24 on:** February 22, 2012, 06:49:22 PM »

After the news "Iran unveiled first domestically built gas turbine"

http://www.iranmilitaryforum.net/economy-and-industry/iran-unveiled-first-domestically-built-%27gas-turbine%27/

Im sure Iran has and is also develop a good Jet-engine parallel to the gas-turbin-project, where the results of the gas-turbine flow into the jet-engine-project. For me it is clear the we will see a good jet-engine at the end of 2012.