Iran Military Forum

Chicome Shenyang WS-10 engines needed close to three decades before they stated it was ready for field use, albeit with greatly reduced usable fly time when comparing to Russian engines... I doubt that Iranians have gotten far enough, but it definately aon´t impossible.

Easiest way for Iran is  to import Klimov RD-33 turbofans ... I am not doubting SAHA's capabilities , they have succesasfully reversed the TRI 60 .... I m not sure but SAHA seems to be the right choice if Hesa wants local production of turbofan ...

i m still in favour of  importing no matter how difficult it is ... Radar + Avionics + Engine all must be imported ... Iran doesnt have time to start some thing new today and waste next 10 years in just R & D ...

TRI 60 is in different league altogether when comparing to RD-33.

u got it wrong .. my point was that Only SAHA in Iran has the vast experience in making aircraft or missile plants ... they r also working on local TV3 turboprop for local An-140 ... so if contract is to be awarded for local production then it must be SAHA ...

but that again will take alot of time and .... and its better to import modern variant of RD-33 ... Iran already flies Mig-29s and has 20 + years experience with these turbofans ... thats was my point ...

Sepasgozaram; you are right.

u got it wrong .. my point was that Only SAHA in Iran has the vast experience in making aircraft or missile plants ... they r also working on local TV3 turboprop for local An-140 ... so if contract is to be awarded for local production then it must be SAHA ...

but that again will take alot of time and .... and its better to import modern variant of RD-33 ... Iran already flies Mig-29s and has 20 + years experience with these turbofans ... thats was my point ...

Russians backed off because of the international resolutions and pressure. Since the 1990s they have become rather cooperative when it comes to international law, results being back stabbing from Iranian point of view..

Even before those international resolutions they have refused to fulfill their commitments to Iran too just due to pressure of USA in 1990s and 2000s decades.

And as I know on that time (2007) there was no law against selling aircraft engines to Iran.

Iran had contracts with Russia for building and launching Zohre satellite. There was no law against this contract but they didn't fulfill their commitment. there are many of such examples.

And this is the reason we can't rely on Russians, It doesn't matter what is the reason of Russians to don't provide Iran with such engines or other weapons.

Shafaq hasn't internal bays, I don't know M-ATF design has internal bays or not, But I have read that in Vityaz2000 designers considered internal weapons bays for it. Designs like EuroFighter and Rafale without internal bays are low RCS fighters with RCS around 0.05 to 0.1 m2 and 0.1 to 0.2 m2 respectively. So I think even without internal weapons bays, M-ATF have the potential to be a low RCS fighter even less than Eurofighter and Rafale.

Shafaq should be 5th generation Aircraft. Completely Stealth and with Internal Weapons Bays.

There is no point to build 4th generation Aircrafts at all. Designs like EuroFighter and Rafale are complete waste of money.
They can not compete with Sukhoi T-50 or F-35.

It is not hard to add Internal Weapons Bays. But Aircraft with Internal Bays is 5th generation Aircraft with very low RCS that can easily defeat all 4th generation Aircrafts.

They asked Russia for engines 3-4 years ago and they refused, This is the reason Iran should work on her own engines.
What I can understand from reports and rumors is that now Iran has already started working on some aircraft engines for few years.

I know that ... but those engines werent for shafagh .

I guess u r referring to the Rd-33 variant which was supposed to be used on Mig Skat ucav but project has been halted . Anyways i agree with u in saying that Iran should not rely upon anyone else . Russia played the same game with China over FC-1 project for 5-6 years . And it is still not confirmed whether the fighter will fly with Chinese WS-13 or Rd-93 .

In another dimension , Iran Needs atleast 20 new RD-33 and RD-33 S-3 in particular for other purposes .

since the topic here is about the development of jet engines, here is an interesting documentary on Rolls Royce jet engines

part1:

How to Build A Jumbo Jet Engine - 1/4 (Full Version)

you can find other parts from the same user.

As it can be seen, building a jet engine that can last for many hours is not as easy as many think.

Yes it had been considered as engine of Mig Skat project.
When Putin came Iran some years ago (2007), Russian medias announced Iran has requested Russia to buy RD-5000 engines.

http://www.kommersant.com/p815301/r_529/Iran_Arms_Aviation_Military/

M-ATF Doostam ... I have read this article alot of  times ... first , installing a RD-33 on a Tiger ( Azaraksh ) is impossible as it is claimed here , also he has indicated iran operating 24 Mig-27 ... operating and possessing are different terms  ...

an off-topic thing ... whats ur opinion on using WS-13 on Mig-29 airframe ? lets suppose If airframes without engines are there and additional RD-33 cant be acquired ... would WS-13 work ?

About installation of RD-33 on Azarakhsh that has been indicated on the above article, although I don't say it is true or not. But I think it is not completely impossible and nonsense. F-20 uses a single engine with around 90 cm diameter and 4m length. RD-33 is slightly bigger (4.3m length and 1 m diameter). So as I said I think it isn't impossible.

 
Why not? almost the same dimensions of RD-33 and the same thrust as RD-33 (standard version), slightly heavier, and as I know It has around half of life span of RD-33.

in one sense a RD-33 can be fit on a F-5 airframe is that side by side 2 x J85 = 90 cm + 10 cm .of in between space = 100 cm space so tiger airframe can fit in with a RD-33 or F404 or even Atar if we just consider dia as a factor . Length wise RD-33 is around 165 inches compared to 52 inches of J-85 .so here it totally fails . Safricans installed RD33 on thier Mirage F1 to replace SNECMA Atar which has both more dia and length then RD-33 so it fit perfectly but i dont see the logic behind fitting RD33 on  tiger Airframe and we havnt yet considered the change of rear body of aircraft that would be required in case we go from 2 side by side small turbojets to one large turbofan .

Yeah that whats i was thinking  . What if some airforce has airframes and cant get RD-33 from ruskies ... Russia is not reliable in any case as we have seen before . Though China itself is not sure abt WS-13 yet . Probably thats why they havnt inducted Fc-1 in PLAAF and no one else other than Pakistan is buying it .Well  Pakistan is desparate to replace its ageing mirage II and Chinese Migs ( numbers around 400 ) so its understanble for them but Azerbaijan , Brazil , Egypt as previously have been claimed havnt placed any order ... probably because of uncertainty of powerplant

in one sense a RD-33 can be fit on a F-5 airframe is that side by side 2 x J85 = 90 cm + 10 cm .of in between space = 100 cm space so tiger airframe can fit in with a RD-33 or F404 or even Atar if we just consider dia as a factor . Length wise RD-33 is around 165 inches compared to 52 inches of J-85 .so here it totally fails . Safricans installed RD33 on thier Mirage F1 to replace SNECMA Atar which has both more dia and length then RD-33 so it fit perfectly but i dont see the logic behind fitting RD33 on tiger Airframe and we havnt yet considered the change of rear body of aircraft that would be required in case we go from 2 side by side small turbojets to one large turbofan .

As I said, Maybe Iran has decided to build F-20 like fighter.
F-20 and F-5 almost have the same length, But F-20 uses single F-404 engine with 154 in length compared to F-5 that has two engines with 52 inches length.
So I think it is possible to fit RD-33 engines on F-5 air frame too, But surely it needs some modification.
I think it is sensible to think maybe Iran has decided to produce a F-20 style fighter as regards Iran had acquired the experience of repair and production of some parts of F-5 during years of Iran-Iraq war and after it.
Imagine F-20 style fighter that uses Iranian made airframe and other subsystems and equipped with RD-33 engine and for example Zhuk radar, why not? It could be a relatively suitable and low cost light fighter for Iran as short time solution for renovation of Iran's air force (particularly on that years), a fighter in the class of FC-1 fighter.

Its like this