Iran Military Forum

But UAVs cannot yet confront fighter jets, isn't it so? And as I know even most advanced air defence systems cannot completely eliminate threats from the air without own fighters... Iran's F-14s are good but not in so much numbers... I think Iran need domestically build light fighter of 4+ (or 4++) generation which will be produced in hundreds (at leats 150-200 units).

brother confront fighter jets where? over Iranian airspace? confronting intruder fighter jets is the job of ground air defense, at least for Iran. Iran needs more missile defense and advanced networked radar systems more than it needs fighter jets. A well planed network of air defenses that are dynamic in a way such that its nodes can turn on and off or move around gets rid of the possibility of losing radar stations by enemy anti-radiation missiles (like HARM or ALARM) and wont allow intruder jets to enter. Such vision in air defense is unconventional as conventional systems are based on stationary/static radar systems.  You can not confront a conventional mighty force like US/NATO with a conventional mind set. whoever did (e.g. Saddam) lost big time. Iran's only bet is to focus on unconventional, asymmetric and dynamic tactics and systems which NATO is not used to.   The more we think outside the box and distance ourselves from the way NATO/US/UK is used to thinking, the more a chance we have in actually humiliating them. Big powers will be humiliated from where they expect the least. Our greatest weapon is our smarts, our morale and the mindset of martyrdom, not conventional equipment. There is no way in hell that we can compete in terms of conventional equipement with US/NATO, so it is better if we focus on our smarts to make use best of what we have and can have.

even recently US has changed their strategy for their future wars. They cut the f-22 program and will downgrade their conventional air force in the years to come and would focus more on unmanned stealthy drones.

brother confront fighter jets where? over Iranian airspace? confronting intruder fighter jets is the job of ground air defense, at least for Iran. Iran needs more missile defense and advanced networked radar systems more than it needs fighter jets. A well planed network of air defenses that are dynamic in a way such that its nodes can turn on and off or move around gets rid of the possibility of losing radar stations by enemy anti-radiation missiles (like HARM or ALARM) and wont allow intruder jets to enter. Such vision in air defense is unconventional as conventional systems are based on stationary/static radar systems.  You can not confront a conventional mighty force like US/NATO with a conventional mind set. whoever did (e.g. Saddam) lost big time. Iran's only bet is to focus on unconventional, asymmetric and dynamic tactics and systems which NATO is not used to.   The more we think outside the box and distance ourselves from the way NATO/US/UK is used to thinking, the more a chance we have in actually humiliating them. Big powers will be humiliated from where they expect the least. Our greatest weapon is our smarts, our morale and the mindset of martyrdom, not conventional equipment. There is no way in hell that we can compete in terms of conventional equipement with US/NATO, so it is better if we focus on our smarts to make use best of what we have and can have.

even recently US has changed their strategy for their future wars. They cut the f-22 program and will downgrade their conventional air force in the years to come and would focus more on unmanned stealthy drones.

Slightly off topic.

1. What is the best way to defend our RADARs against  the (1) HARM missiles  (2) Tomahawk cruise missiles (3) US fighter Jets?

2. Small RADARs:  .... ok, perhaps it is easy to hide them by moving them from one place to another. .... but what about the "Big Radars"?

3. I read that Iranian made Concrete Blocks are very very hard.  I don't know the explosive power of HARM or Tomahawk missiles. Simple question: Are Iranian made Concrete Blocks are able to sustain the explosives of HARM and Tomahawk?

You talked about  unconventional, asymmetric and dynamic tactics..... please go ahead and talk about this with reference to saving Iranian Radars from enemy.

Emir jon.....the F-4 is an old airframe. It is bulky, unwieldy and sluggish at high altitude, but performs better at lower altitudes due to its thick wings. Those J-79's are smoky at it's optimum cruise speeds of around 600knts. But......it's a great bomb truck!
What 10 shahab's will do, one F-4 can carry in ordnance. That is the difference aircraft make.
Iran has a lot of bomb trucks right now in it's inventory, Su-24's are even more capable, and have very high performance.
It's the air superiority types which we are lacking.
The best solution INMO is to reverse engineer the Su-30MK. But Russia refuses to deliver under foreign pressure. China is another source for the Flankers, but it is also under close watch by Russia now because of copy catting behavior.

The Flanker combines the best of both worlds in strike and air combat capability. The JSF/ F-35 is inferior to late generation Flankers in performance. The Su-30's of the Indian AF have repeatedly beaten late generation F-15's and F-16's in actual mock combats over and over again in Alaska and again in Singapore.

The only thing that outclasses a late generation MK Flanker right now is the F-22, and that too by not much. With AESA retrofits that Russia is making available to replace the Bars N011M will make the MK series highly competitive.

The PAK-FA/ Sukhoi T-50 is developing into a beast that will dominate the air for decades to come. It is far more maneuverable and deadly than even the Flanker with 5th Gen weapon systems, LO profiling and all weapons and fuel stowed internally. Russia has spent more than $20 billion developing it.

Anyway if its of any interest here is the link to the AUS airpower article on the Su-30MK series and how it competes with the latest 5th Gen types, and how many times the threat of the advanced MK series have forced the Boeing designers repeatedly back to the drawing boards:

http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-Flankers-Sept03.pdf#search=%22RAAF%20alternatives%22

Saeqeh is under naval aviation i guess right now ,  wiki says navy is acquiring saeqeh . If Noor, Kowsar , Mehrab  , Nasr or Zafar ASCM can be wired on it then , having them in no.  around 50-60 gives huge boost to strike capability of Naroieh Dariyeh ... Kahlije fars is not a big sea that needs long range strike fighters , with a fleet of around 35 Submarines , 30 surface Vessels ( Frigates + Corvettes + FAC) , 200 Missile Boats , some 60 Saeqehs armed with above mentioned ASCMs , with support of Anti ship ballistic missiles ... enemy will think twice before doing something stupid with Iran .

Coming back to topic , Only possible choice of an airframe that can accommodate Klimov turbofans and Zhuk ME radars (e.g.) seems to be based upon F-4 phantom ...

whatever aircraft IRIAF needs to acquire / create today should be multirole and for that it should be large enough for carrying both A2A and A2G weaponry , with long raneg since iran has a large area to cover ( we have a very big country ) . Phantom based airframe seems best to me for the job , give it klimovs 33 or even 93  , Zhuk ME , and Mig-29M2 style weapon suite and we will have a strong fighter in the sky ... easy route would be to Use locally made J-79s , and just ask Russia to deliver the modern Topaz or Zhuk radars ( ME or AE if possible), Mig-35 caliber Avionics suite and alot of A2A weaponry ( R77 ,  R73 , R27 ) .... while not to mention that Physical Performance of Phantom , Speed , Climb rate , Range , Payload are excellent  and better than most of the air-crafts flying  around ...

believe me , such a fighter in numbers around 100-120 will seriously mean something .....

 

UAV's once detected will be shot down in 2 minutes by fighter jets, unless they fly in outer space.

Also there are plenty of air to space missiles to knockout low orbiting satellites in service in the USAF and the Rus AF.

Currently there are no substitutes for a manned air combat fighter. Drones work when air superiority is achieved (Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq), and then mopping up air defenses gets a whole lot easier. 

If your enemy has no air force, half the battle is already won.

But UAVs cannot yet confront fighter jets, isn't it so? And as I know even most advanced air defence systems cannot completely eliminate threats from the air without own fighters... Iran's F-14s are good but not in so much numbers... I think Iran need domestically build light fighter of 4+ (or 4++) generation which will be produced in hundreds (at leats 150-200 units).

Hello guys, I cannot read persian very well.

can you guys tell me if this means they are planning new fighter jets, does they mention any new fighter jets?

Missiles are not enough to counter rge saudi,yanki,zionists whores

So any mention of a new fighter jet?

brother confront fighter jets where? over Iranian airspace?

Over PG, for example. Iranian navy has not yet powerful AD systems, so missile boats and other vessels will be hunted from enemy occupied skies...

Emir jon.....the F-4 is an old airframe. It is bulky, unwieldy and sluggish at high altitude, but performs better at lower altitudes due to its thick wings. Those J-79's are smoky at it's optimum cruise speeds of around 600knts. But......it's a great bomb truck!
What 10 shahab's will do, one F-4 can carry in ordnance. That is the difference aircraft make.
Iran has a lot of bomb trucks right now in it's inventory, Su-24's are even more capable, and have very high performance.
It's the air superiority types which we are lacking.

Rafighe man lull , I wasnt saying that IRIAF should use the exact Phantom airframe for further development . I was saying that something new in same configuration . Off-course if it would be a 4 + generation then it will be bonded honeycomb base composite based unlike the conventional Alloy of 3rd generation aircraft like Phantom so the weight will be less . Acceleration issues as  u mentioned can be addressed once u have the basic weight of the aircraft set , mere function of TW ratio ... The RD-33 or any variant of it like RD93 can produce upto 40 K lbs ( x 2  ) at AF ( provided Russia agrees to deliver them like some 50-75 RD33 came some year back ) Rd 33 , J79 turbojet are roughly same dia , another Engine of same dia in Iran's reach is Al-21 of Su-24 and Mig-23 ( variant ) . Maneuverability can be addressed by incorporating a Negative  RSS  through 4 channel FBW and a basic FLCC . it will make a good Aircraft ... IMO Phantom design had alot of potential but corporate politics resisted any furhter evolution . The Israelis made Kornas 2000 based upon Phantom E and it was an equivalent of F/A-18 C/D  ... Another advantage is that Iran knows everything abt this design , its + and - ... it will take alot of less time in research then studying something new .... had Iranian Aviation brains took more interest in Phantom rather than obsessing with F-5E based designs ( Azaraksh and Saeqeh ) then today we would have been alot better .

The best solution INMO is to reverse engineer the Su-30MK. But Russia refuses to deliver under foreign pressure. China is another source for the Flankers, but it is also under close watch by Russia now because of copy catting behavior.

The Flanker combines the best of both worlds in strike and air combat capability. The JSF/ F-35 is inferior to late generation Flankers in performance. The Su-30's of the Indian AF have repeatedly beaten late generation F-15's and F-16's in actual mock combats over and over again in Alaska and again in Singapore.

The only thing that outclasses a late generation MK Flanker right now is the F-22, and that too by not much. With AESA retrofits that Russia is making available to replace the Bars N011M will make the MK series highly competitive.

The PAK-FA/ Sukhoi T-50 is developing into a beast that will dominate the air for decades to come. It is far more maneuverable and deadly than even the Flanker with 5th Gen weapon systems, LO profiling and all weapons and fuel stowed internally. Russia has spent more than $20 billion developing it.

Anyway if its of any interest here is the link to the AUS airpower article on the Su-30MK series and how it competes with the latest 5th Gen types, and how many times the threat of the advanced MK series have forced the Boeing designers repeatedly back to the drawing boards:

http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-Flankers-Sept03.pdf#search=%22RAAF%20alternatives%22

Lull I know how capable Flanker is ... Chinese , Indians are not fools that they r acquiring it in heavy numbers even with other options available . If i remember correctly Indian Flankers won against F-15C of USAF , but eagles were restricted to WVR only .

but problem is same again ... will Russia agree ? or Chinese ? or even Indians ? .... Russia backed out from merely  a defensive weapon i.e. S-300P then how can we trust it with giving iranian engineers access to most sophisticated thing of its current fleet ? ... They might agree to provide us with Klimov or Al-21 turbofans ( through third party ) or or Zhuk M or A Radars if we r lucky but i dont see them agreeing in giving us Flankers ... They r friends and (my father was born in USSR lol )  and they have given us everything
they can but , they like us are very isolated themselves now . Russia , China , India ... all are friends but they have their problems in dealing with us .

so its better to learn from past .... Use composite based Phantom design ( with modifications off-course ) , add modern FLCC , 4 channel FBW , negative RSS ... Use RD-33 turbofans . I wont mind a local turbojet J79 either provided performance is enhanced . Seek Zhuk M radars from Russia along with additional R-77s  .....Go the assembling route Like India did with its LCA

another simple approach .... buy 2nd hand Mig-29s from wherever available in world , I heard Hungry and Malaysia are up for sale or even from Russia through Syria ... Its an easy solution . Additional Mig-29s ( if we manage to get some 
50 more ) will instantly boost the deference capability but with R-77 . Its a more practical ,  instant and easy approach .

Emir, look at this Pakistan even.....it's amazing that they now have this FC-1/ JF-17........It's a simple little fighter but packs a punch, and the next mod is coming up with stealth features, and conformal tanks.

It carries a fairly useful radar, has very decent 3000km range with drop tanks, and now the Chinese are incorporating a reverse engineered SD-10 which is really a Aspide/ sparrow into its BVR system. 

At $15million unit price, it is a perfect replacement for all these F-5's, mig-21's and MirageIII/V's.

The only downside is that its underpowered and top speed is Mach 1.8, and is not able to compete with the newer generation F-16's, F-18's and Sukhoi's and even the Mig-29. But, its a step in the right direction!

The next time though,  China will share the J-10 and J-11 technology with Pakistan, and they will jointly develop an even better fighter.

With Iran making huge strides in other defense areas, we need to lift up our game in combat aircraft manufacturing, or we will suffer the consequences.

...and how have those aircraft helped Pakistan?

The biggest area where the 'F-16 diplomacy' used to work for the US in arm twisting Pakistan to comply with US demands is over Rouz.

Now with China advancing in military tech, the Pakistani's have one base somewhat covered. There is a much better and far more reliable source for modern weaponry now available to Pakistan, and the relations between the U.S. and Pakistan are now at breaking point and probably at their worst.

With 250 or so of these JF-17's, the PAF can replace hundreds of its aeging Mirages, F-7's and A-5's, with a much more modern airframe.

The political & economic reasons why Pakistan finds itself in the situation it is in today are beyond the scope of this thread Rouz.......

...and how have those aircraft helped Pakistan?

Emir, look at this Pakistan even.....it's amazing that they now have this FC-1/ JF-17........It's a simple little fighter but packs a punch, and the next mod is coming up with stealth features, and conformal tanks.

It carries a fairly useful radar, has very decent 3000km range with drop tanks, and now the Chinese are incorporating a reverse engineered SD-10 which is really a Aspide/ sparrow into its BVR system. 

At $15million unit price, it is a perfect replacement for all these F-5's, mig-21's and MirageIII/V's.

The only downside is that its underpowered and top speed is Mach 1.8, and is not able to compete with the newer generation F-16's, F-18's and Sukhoi's and even the Mig-29. But, its a step in the right direction!

The next time though,  China will share the J-10 and J-11 technology with Pakistan, and they will jointly develop an even better fighter.

With Iran making huge strides in other defense areas, we need to lift up our game in combat aircraft manufacturing, or we will suffer the consequences.

FC-1 is a good aircraft in its category , however it took a healthy 20 year to came into production . I reckon that it was named as Project Super 7 , started in 1992 . Ppl claim that it was a cancelled Mig-33 design , but i doubt it , Mig has never been into small aircraft since Mig-21 which is now 50 year old ...  anyways again Iran cant buy fighter aircraft from outside countries and neither China or Russia can do anything abt it either . I have already told what could be the best option for IRIAF if it wants a new air dominance aircraft in next 3-4 years . I dont know what is going through the minds of IRIAF planners but if they want instant solution then go for Used Mig-29s from wherever they can ... Hungry ,  Malaysia,  Ukraine , Syria or even Russia ... it doesnt matter , 50 more mig-29s armed with R-77 / 73 / 27 and upgraded upto M2 standard can put up a serious challenge against any intruder . IRIAF right now operates alot of Fulcrums ( controversial figures ranging from 45 to 75 to 98 ) with 2 squadrons upgraded upto M standard . If we can add  let say 50 Mig-29 M then they can easily adapt to already there infrastructure , IRIAF will require no training , no additional $ etc ... this would give Iran some margin of at-least next 10 years to research / seek / study / steal .. the tech. for a 4.5 -> 5 generation platform . Syria did same in 2009 deal where they upgraded thier 42 aircrafts upto M2 standards and bought unknown numbers from russia ( some claim upto 80 aircrafts in total ) ,  Same deal also provided Iran with Super cavitation torpedoes and Pantsyr S1 air defence systems where Syria became the 3rd party to by pass sanctions . Iran already has Shafagh and Sofreh mahi projects so preliminary research is there ... some careful planning like what was adapted for Neyroiyeh Dariyeh Iran 5 years back would take Iran back to its spot in air too ... 

and J-11 to pakistan was merely a keyboard talk . I heard even J-10  sell is not finalized yet . Pakistani airforce is seriously behind Indian AF now ... Mig-29M / SMT , Mirage 2000-9 ,  LCA , Su-30 MKI , Dassault Rafael , Pak-FA , Jaguars , Mig-27s .... I seriously dont see Pakistani AF putting up any challenge against Indian AF . Thier major problem is lack of BVR , if u exclude 30 FC-1s and some 30 F-16s Block 52  , rest of the Pakistani air-force relies upon 1960s and 70s WVR A2A missiles ... If they can manage to grab some 70-80 Ef-2000 or J-10s then it would be something but right now Indian airforce can finish them off in 3-4 days .

if war is coming soon to iran, then it would be a waste of money to invest in a long-term project such as designing and producing a fighter. the money would be better spent in producing more surface-to-surface missiles, anti-ship weapons (including producing more of those midget subs), anti-aircraft weapons and logistics (in terms of providing Hezbollah, Hamas and other proxies heavier weaponry).

if money was invested in a fighter, can't the iranians just reverse engineer the f-4s, f-14s or the mig-29s??

also whats the status of the shahad 285 attack helicopter?