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video was not found access denied! ahh soz working now bro!
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thats disgusting!!! How can these people live with them selves???? 15 year old!!!! WTF!!! dont these people have children? Dont these people have morals??? whats wrong with society?? Every amerikkkan soldier should be declared halal for killing and halal to torture them! EVERY SINGLE LAST ONE WHO DEFENDS THIS STUPID CONSTITUTION OF THIS TERRORIST COUNTRY!

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Disgusting but hardly surprising...

Viscous military training and battlefield stress combined with a preexisting mental retardation creates monsters such as the one in the video.
Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 12:57:15 PM by Barberry

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These are some of the retarded inbred soldiers that youl find in the military.... May these sick people burn in hell inshallah.

Ya Ali
Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 01:23:15 PM by IR.IRAN

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It may sound insensitive, but incidents like this are largely inevitable in wartime.

Rape as a weapon, i'm afraid to say, has a long and storied history as far back as organized warfare. It's can't be attributed to any one culture, religion or nation, let alone the US military, it's rather more just a function of the human condition.

That being said, here's to hoping the military justice system makes quick, but fair work of them.

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It may sound insensitive, but incidents like this are largely inevitable in wartime.

Rape as a weapon, i'm afraid to say, has a long and storied history as far back as organized warfare. It's can't be attributed to any one culture, religion or nation, let alone the US military, it's rather more just a function of the human condition.

That being said, here's to hoping the military justice system makes quick, but fair work of them.
Unfortunetly thats true.

Who are we kidding about justice though? people that that (doesnt matter from which country) will likely return home without any consequences of their actions.

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It may sound insensitive, but incidents like this are largely inevitable in wartime.

Rape as a weapon, i'm afraid to say, has a long and storied history as far back as organized warfare. It's can't be attributed to any one culture, religion or nation, let alone the US military, it's rather more just a function of the human condition.

I radically disagree with this assessment.

Rape as a weapon cannot be banalized at a time when the international laws of warfare are rather substantial on the protection of civilian populations. It is like saying that terrorizing civilians in warfare would be "normal" or "inevitable" by today's standards, which clearly isn't the case.

Also, this practice is indeed more common among US occupation forces, and it is not equally widespread among all armies, for a variety of reasons such as: the general consumerist culture in US society, which encourages sexual gratification at all costs; the prevailing atmosphere, in the west, of islamophobia and the resulting dehumanization of the citizens of occupied Muslim nations; the lack of liability for US forces, who, relatively to the standards of their own judicial system, do not face harsh punishment for such crimes, as was proven by the relatively lenient sentences (if any) handed to the perpetrators of documented war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan; etc.

In contrast, the warriors of Islamic Iran, for instance, did not use this as a weapon in their Sacred Defence against the US-backed, Ba'thist aggressors.
Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 02:19:05 PM by Rakhsh786

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I radically disagree with this assessment.

Rape as a weapon cannot be banalized at a time when the international laws of warfare are rather substantial on the protection of civilian populations. It is like saying that terrorizing civilians in warfare would be "normal" or "inevitable" by today's standards, which clearly isn't the case.
It's not a question of banalizing it, it's a question of rational assessement of a given circumstance.

I completely agree that terrorizing civilians in wartime is both "normal" and "inevitable". I think we can say the same thing about killing in general during wartime. But this recognition of fact doesn't mean i think it's a good thing, and in fact, we should do our best to oppose it. While i don't believe in applying universal western morality or value-judgements across the board i do feel that opposition to rape is "universal enough" to warrant opposition on more then just a cost-benefit analysis.

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Also, this practice is indeed more common among US occupation forces, and it is not equally widespread among all armies, for a variety of reasons such as: the general consumerist culture in US society, which encourages sexual gratification at all costs; the prevailing atmosphere, in the west, of islamophobia and the resulting dehumanization of the citizens of occupied Muslim nations; the lack of liability for US forces, who, relatively to the standards of their own judicial system, do not face harsh punishment for such crimes, as was proven by the relatively lenient sentences (if any) handed to the perpetrators of documented war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan; etc.

In contrast, the warriors of Islamic Iran, for instance, did not use this as a weapon in their Sacred Defence against the US-backed, Ba'thist aggressors.
That's really just a myth that's not really built on any actual solid statistics.

Here's a portion from a book that i have found to be immensely helpful when it comes to understanding military psychology:

Quote from: Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society
Rape is a very important part of the process of dominating and dehumanizing an enemy; and the process of mutual empowering and bonding  at the expense of others is exactly what occurs during gang rapes. In war, empowerment and bonding through gang rapes often occur at the national level.

The German-Russian conflict during World War II is an excellent example of vicious cycle in which both sides became totally invested in atrocity and rape. This reached the point at which, according to Albert Seaton, Soviet soldiers attacking Germany were told that they were not accountable for civil crimes committed in Germany and that personal property and the German women were theirs by right. 

The incidence of rape as a result of these encouragements appears to have been in the millions. Cornelius Ryan, in The Last Battle estimated that there were one hundred thousand births resulting from rapes in Berlin alone following World War II. In recent years we have seen the use of rape as a political tool by the Serbs in Bosnia. The thing to understand here is that gang rapes and gang or cult killings in times of peace and war are not "senseless violence". They are instead powerful acts of group bonding and criminal enabling ...

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These bastards will get paid, trust me for that.
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It may sound insensitive, but incidents like this are largely inevitable in wartime.

Rape as a weapon, i'm afraid to say, has a long and storied history as far back as organized warfare. It's can't be attributed to any one culture, religion or nation, let alone the US military, it's rather more just a function of the human condition.

That being said, here's to hoping the military justice system makes quick, but fair work of them.

Do you and Eagle have to be an apologist for every crime America does?

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Do you and Eagle have to be an apologist for every crime America does?
Does everyone else here have to harp on crimes like they're some sort of unique American phenomena?

This isn't an apology, it's a frank comment on the nature of war. I clearly point out where i wish quick justice to be visited upon the perpetrators. There's nothing in my post that's factually inaccurate, at least to the best of my knowledge.

You'd be hard-pressed to find any warzone that isn't visited by the spectre of rape-as-a-weapon. The attitude here is that the American gringos are going to break into your house and rape your family because they're some sort of monsters, hell, Rakhsh's attitude illustrates this point perfectly.

This just isn't true, if incidents like this do happen, it doesn't happen because they're Americans, it happens because of the influences of war that allow this kind of action.  The widespread nature of rape-as-a-weapon is a tribute to this. Either that, or because they as individuals are "damaged goods" in some way, in which case, people like this can be found anywhere, and again, isn't unique to America.


Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 04:34:18 PM by Ayyash

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Does everyone else here have to harp on crimes like they're some sort of unique American phenomena?

I don't see that being done.

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This isn't an apology, it's a frank comment on the nature of war. I clearly point out where i wish quick justice to be visited upon the perpetrators. There's nothing in my post that's factually inaccurate, at least to the best of my knowledge.

Being an apologist and apologising are too different things.

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You'd be hard-pressed to find any warzone that isn't visited by the spectre of rape-as-a-weapon.

Rape-as-a-weapon is when the commanders actually order the use of rape, this is not the case here.

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Either that, or because they as individuals are "damaged goods" in some way, in which case, people like this can be found anywhere, and again, isn't unique to America.

Well maybe if America didn't start a new war every other day, there wouldn't be so many cases of these crimes done by Americans and hence it wouldn't be in the news so often.

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Being an apologist and apologising are too different things.
Like i said, point out anything factually incorrect about my statement. Show me where i defend or justify war-time rape because that's what an apologist is.

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Rape-as-a-weapon is when the commanders actually order the use of rape, this is not the case here.
I feel that's too limited of a definition, i think "rape as a weapon" doesn't need to be institutional in the same way commander doesn't need to order a gun to be fired for someone to be shot, rape-as-a-weapon can exist if it's used in wartime, by a soldier as a weapon, whether or not it's ordered by a commander or not.

Of course, i include the qualification afterwards, that if it wasn't an instance of this, then it was conventional rape, divorced from

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Well maybe if America didn't start a new war every other day, there wouldn't be so many cases of these crimes done by Americans and hence it wouldn't be in the news so often.
You won't find me arguing against the fact that our military shouldn't have gotten involved in Iraq, and has probably overstayed its welcome in Afghanistan, and that doing so was probably detrimental to the mental health of many of our soldiers.

There also really haven't been that many, there have been a number of high-profile cases such as Abu Ghraib, but really, nothing on the scale of millions that Grossman cites as happening on the Eastern Front.
Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 05:34:43 PM by Ayyash

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It's not a question of banalizing it, it's a question of rational assessement of a given circumstance.

I doubt the rationality of this kind of assessment. By suggesting that all armies have, to an equal extent and under all circumstances, behaved in this manner, it tends to banalize war crimes committed by US forces.


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I completely agree that terrorizing civilians in wartime is both "normal" and "inevitable". I think we can say the same thing about killing in general during wartime.

There is a substantial difference, both in legal and ethical terms, between the targetting of civilians and attacks against military forces. The difference can also be practically determined, and the border between these actions is not that blurred at all. Furthermore, authors of war crimes against civilians can be held accountable for their actions, both morally and legally.

To even suggest that there has never existed any qualitative difference regarding the ways in which armed forces and the political decision-makers overseeing them have conducted war, specially with respect to civilian populations, seems quite ignorant of history, while disregarding volumes of research in human sciences.

The international law of warfare is not based on erroneous premises either. Its application, however, suffers from double standards and imperfection.


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That's really just a myth that's not really built on any actual solid statistics.

In fact, it is a finding based on thorough sociological and political studies - which incidentally, for this type of question, are far more determining than usually non-existent "statistics".
Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 06:42:16 PM by Rakhsh786

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You'd be hard-pressed to find any warzone that isn't visited by the spectre of rape-as-a-weapon.

This suggestion has not been supported by hard evidence or the citation of recognized studies, meaning that it represents your personal impression only.


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The attitude here is that the American gringos are going to break into your house and rape your family because they're some sort of monsters, hell, Rakhsh's attitude illustrates this point perfectly.

This just isn't true, if incidents like this do happen, it doesn't happen because they're Americans, it happens because of the influences of war that allow this kind of action.


There is a substantial difference in the recurrence of such crimes in many conflicts the US forces are involved in, compared to other cases. And properly conducted comparative studies will reveal that there also exist differences in the conduct of various armies in various periods of time and under various circumstances. Now, the caracteristics of US society and the sociologic background of a great number of US troops, as determined by other studies, are such that they directly encourage this particular kind of war crime, compared to, say an army essentially composed of deeply religious individuals like Iranians during the Sacred Defence. In other words, if US society was thorougly reformed following certain patterns, there are chances that American soldiers would less often committ this and other types of war crimes. Their nationality, as such, is irrelevant to my analysis, and therefore invalidates the above cited caracterization of my "attitude".


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The widespread nature of rape-as-a-weapon is a tribute to this.

This, however, fails to explain the varying recurrence of this type of practice in different historically observed conflict situations.


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Either that, or because they as individuals are "damaged goods" in some way, in which case, people like this can be found anywhere, and again, isn't unique to America.

Are you suggesting that the patterns of recruitement in the US armed forces are exactly the same as those of any other country? That the social composition of armed forces is the same all over the world? That the percentage of psyschologically ill individuals, and the relative proportions of illnesses they are suffering from, is exactly the same in every single society, and that the caracteristics of each society have no impact whatsoever on these factors?
Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 07:04:09 PM by Rakhsh786

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This suggestion is not based on any hard evidence nor on recognized studies, it is merely your personal impression... and wrong, at that.

Ayyash has a point bro. Rape has been a weapon employed by male soldiers during war since the beginning of time. There is a thriving literature in political science, anthropology, history and philosophy which deals with it too.

It's a disgusting practise, but not a new or distinctly American one.
All the prophets, with the exception of those of the Abrahamic line, turn immediately to the existing secular power and seek association with it, hoping to propogate their religion and message in society by means of that power. By contrast, all the prophets of the Abrahamic line, from Ibrahim down to the Prophet of Islam, proclaim their missions in the form of rebellion against the existing secular power.

Dr. Ali Shari'ati [On The Sociology of Islam]

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Ayyash has a point bro. Rape has been a weapon employed by male soldiers during war since the beginning of time. There is a thriving literature in political science, anthropology, history and philosophy which deals with it too.

It's a disgusting practise, but not a new or distinctly American one.

Brother, I am not questioning the fact that throughout history, others than Americans have resorted to this practice.

What I am refuting here, however, is:
- the idea that there have never been quantitative and, more importantly, qualitative differences in this respect (and with respect to war crimes in general - as if outright, planned genocide, for instance, could be equated with accidental civilian losses, or as if the political contexts in which such crimes occur could be ignored, or as if the intentions and attitudes of decision-makers would not matter in determining their responsabilities);
- the notion that social and political factors cannot contribute to enhancing, or on the contrary, curtailing such a practice;
- that such aggravting factors do not exist in current US society in particular, considering some of its caracteristics;
- the suggestion that during the Sacred Defence, Iranian forces resorted to rape or to terrorizing of Iraqi civilians as a matter of policy or tactic, like US forces are currently doing in the countries they occupy, or like the Mongols did during their medieval invasions.
Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 10:37:49 PM by Rakhsh786

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Alright, let's back it up here.

There are a couple of things we need to establish before we can go on.

I'll begin with the burden of proof on my side.

This suggestion has not been supported by hard evidence or the citation of recognized studies, meaning that it represents your personal impression only.


Check out the Wikipedia article on it. Note that it's extremely well sourced.
- Ancient Greeks
- Ancient Romans
- Ancient Eastern armies
- Medieval Arabia
- Vikings
- Mongols
- Boxer Rebellion
- WWI
- WWII
- Balkans
- Rwanda
- Sri Lanka

And those were just all the notable cases that warranted mention on Wikipedia, i'm sure there are many others, as Islambouli said, there are entire histories across the fields devoted to this very subject

These are all specific instances where rape has been used as a specific weapon of war as well as where there has been high instances of it due to local conditions and specific stimulai.


Now, here's what i need from you:

1) Evidence that refers to the scale to which rape/sexual assault actually takes place in occupied countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. I think for simplicities sake we should restrict out self to these theaters because they seem to be the most relevant to our discussion. Specifically, i don't particularly care about whether or not it does happen (because it does, i don't think anyone would debate that), but at what rate it happens comparative to other conflicts, because, if as you state, there is a direct correlation between modern American culture and sexual violence, it should be readily apparent.

This is what your argument rests on and i have yet to see anything that implies that is the case.

2) These studies you cite that support the statement: " ... properly conducted comparative studies will reveal that there also exist differences in the conduct of various armies in various periods of time and under various circumstances. Now, the caracteristics of US society and the sociologic background of a great number of US troops, as determined by other studies, are such that they directly encourage this particular kind of war crime, compared to, say an army essentially composed of deeply religious individuals like Iranians during the Sacred Defence.
Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 07:56:13 PM by Ayyash

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Alright, let's back it up here.

That does not back up the claim I was responding to, which read as follows:

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You'd be hard-pressed to find any warzone that isn't visited by the spectre of rape-as-a-weapon.

I have provided a telling counter-example, namely the conduct of Iranian forces during the Sacred Defence.

Rape was committed by soldiers of various countries in the list of conflicts you cited, however, the assumption that this has been the case in every single war to date, or that there have not been any qualititive and quantitative differences in this regard, remains erroneous.


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Now, here's what i need from you:

When it comes to war crimes in general, compare for instance, the findings in this book:

Iris Chang, The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II, Penguin, 1998

with the behaviour of Iranian forces during the Sacred Defence as per any authoritative study relative to the Iran-Iraq war, and you will discover that armies can indeed behave in different manners.

Regarding the USA regime's wars of aggression, it is well documented that sexual assault against women inside the US military itself is extremely widespread, more so than in other armies. I challenge you to find any studies reflecting a similar scope and culture of sexual violence in the present day armed forces of Sweden, Germany, Austria, or Belgium, to name just a few.

Culture of Unpunished Sexual Assault in Military
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=46674

Rape Rampant in US Military
http://www.theinvestigativefund.org/investigations/iraqafghanistan/1444/rape_rampant_in_us_military/

1/3rd of Women in US Military Raped
http://newsjunkiepost.com/2010/01/26/13rd-of-women-in-us-military-raped/

Now, cases internal to the US military have a slight chance of being publicized, because the victims happen to be American citizens... even so, it is estimated that nearly 80% of cases go unreported. Considering this statistical propensity of soldiers in the USA armed forces towards sexual violence, it is easy to infer, based on elementary logic, how important the numbers of Iraqi and Afghan women raped by the occupation forces must be, considering that these women totally lack the opportunities, support and institutional infrastructures required to publicize their ordeals.

This is corroborated by reports and bits of news such as these:



The account of an Iraqi female prisoner - she alone witnessed no less than five other Iraqi women being raped by US forces, also gives us an idea of the frequency of these war crimes, just as the testimony of this investigative journalist and social worker in Jordan, who reports that most women detained in Abu Ghraib prison were raped (that is, more than 50%):

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Yet nothing comes closer to Titus Andronicus than the insistent, terrible stories of gang rape by United States personnel in Abu Ghraib. You hear this repeatedly in Amman, and a very accurate source of mine in Washington a man who deals with military personnel tells me they are true. This, he says, is why Barack Obama changed his mind about releasing the photographs which George W Bush refused to make public. The pictures we saw of the humiliation of men were outrageous enough. But the ones we haven't seen show Americans raping Iraqi women.

Lima Nabil, a journalist who now runs a home for on-the-run girls, sips coffee as the boiling Jordanian sun frowns through the window at us. "In Abu Ghraib," she says, "women were tortured by the Americans much more than the men. One woman said she witnessed five girls being raped. Most of the women in the prison were raped some of them left prison pregnant. Families killed some of these women because of the shame."

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-the-truth-about-honour-killings-2075317.html


When examining the US military's use of sexual violence against civilian populations in other contexts, we can see a clear pattern emerge.

Andrea Smith, Conquest: Sexual Violence and American Indian Genocide, South End Press, 2005

The 'rape' of Okinawa
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/JC05Dh01.html

A Message from the Women of Okinawa To All US GIs in Okinawa
http://www.counterpunch.org/cpnews02212008.html

There have been so many documented instances of rape by US troops against Japanese citizens in Okinawa, that I did not bother to find a precise count, but it is obvious that these have been much more frequent than the "norm". For example, the soldiers of the French military base at Baden-Baden, Germany, to my knowledge didn't rape a single local woman in several decades, nor did Russian troops at Kant air base in Kyrgyzstan, etc - I challenge anyone to prove that if they did, it occurred at a frequency comparable to the documented habits of US gun-touters in Okinawa.

And here, we are not even talking about a conflict situation, mind you! This incidentally invalidates the argument that the widespread practice of sexual assault by US forces is simply a consequence of war.  

On the percentage of criminals and felons allowed into the US armed forces, see:

One in Eight Army Recruits Require Moral Waiver
http://usmilitary.about.com/b/2008/04/07/one-in-eight-army-recruits-require-moral-waiver.htm

Note that the tendency of US armed forces to recruit criminals has increased since 2008:

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The US army doubled its use of "moral waivers" for enlisted soldiers last year to cope with the stress of the Iraq war, allowing convicted sex offenders, people convicted of making terrorist threats and child abusers into the military, according to new records released today.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/21/usa1


A good counter-example to this, again, is Islamic Iran, where offenders are not handed "moral waivers" so they can join the army.

Moreover, I don't need to remind anyone here how US society performs in terms of crime rates, compared to any other developed nation, or to a great number of developing nations, do I? This inevitably reflects itself in its armed forces.

About the overall correlation between US society and sexual forms of violence, we can consult:

Thomas Walter Herbert, Sexual Violence and American Manhood, Harvard University Press, 2002
Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 11:47:51 PM by Rakhsh786

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That does not back up the claim I was responding to, which read as follows:

I was actually using the term "back it up" to refer to slowing down, it might be a specific American phrase. :)

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I have provided a telling counter-example, namely the conduct of Iranian forces during the Sacred Defence.

The reason rape wasn't prevalent in the Iran-Iraq war by Iranian forces isn't because of some supposed moral superiority, but because of the basic fact that Iran didn't really operate into Iraqi occupied territory in any real capacity. They might have on the tactical level, but never strategically. They weren't exposes to any of the stimulai

Moreover, the fact that rape has been prevalent in many different conflicts including Muslims prove it doesn't come down to individual piety or morality, but rather, the forces of war including what Grossman terms the wind of hate, depersonalization and dehumanization, etc.

I didn't want to bring it up because of the firestorm it would create, but now that you're specifically referencing the IRI's behavior, I feel I have to. The allegations of widespread systemic rape in Iranian prisons as a form of punishment proves Iran isn't a unique entity, but just as vulnerable as the rest of humanity to the allure of atrocity.

This was even admitted by Iranian authorities, this isn't debate at all, this is established fact.

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Rape was committed by soldiers of various countries in the list of conflicts you cited, however, the assumption that this has been the case in every single war to date, or that there have not been any qualititive and quantitative differences in this regard, remains erroneous.

That's definitely true, but that's not my point. My point isn't that every single country in the history of time is exactly the same, but rather there are certain underlying biological imperatives that tend to produce the same results in countries when they go to war. Forgive my exaggeration when i said "all" conflict zones, i'll admit it was a graphical illustration of my main point.

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When it comes to war crimes in general, compare for instance, the findings in this book:

Iris Chang, The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II, Penguin, 1998

The "rape of nanking" actually refers to the the Japanese, not the American presence. In a way, it even proves my point.

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with the behaviour of Iranian forces during the Sacred Defence as per any authoritative study relative to the Iran-Iraq war, and you will discover that armies can indeed behave in different manners.

see above

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Regarding the USA regime's wars of aggression, it is well documented that sexual assault against women inside the US military itself is extremely widespread, more so than in other armies. I challenge you to find any studies reflecting a similar scope and culture of sexual violence in the present day armed forces of Sweden, Germany, Austria, or Belgium, to name just a few.

Culture of Unpunished Sexual Assault in Military
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=46674

Rape Rampant in US Military
http://www.theinvestigativefund.org/investigations/iraqafghanistan/1444/rape_rampant_in_us_military/

1/3rd of Women in US Military Raped
http://newsjunkiepost.com/2010/01/26/13rd-of-women-in-us-military-raped/
And we should do everything to reduce this as much as possible, However, none of this evidence is comparative, which is really required. Again, I'm not disputing that sexual assault is prevalent in the US military.

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The account of an Iraqi female prisoner - she alone witnessed no less than five other Iraqi women being raped by US forces, also gives us an idea of the frequency of these war crimes, just as the testimony of this investigative journalist and social worker in Jordan, who reports that most women detained in Abu Ghraib prison were raped (that is, more than 50%):



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The 'rape' of Okinawa
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/JC05Dh01.html

A Message from the Women of Okinawa To All US GIs in Okinawa
http://www.counterpunch.org/cpnews02212008.html

There have been so many documented instances of rape by US troops against Japanese citizens in Okinawa, that I did not bother to find a precise count, but it is obvious that these have been much more frequent than the "norm". For example, the soldiers of the French military base at Baden-Baden, Germany, to my knowledge didn't rape a single local woman in several decades, nor did Russian troops at Kant air base in Kyrgyzstan, etc - I challenge anyone to prove that if they did, it occurred at a frequency comparable to the documented habits of US gun-touters in Okinawa.

Actually it did happen all over, look at the "War Rape" page on wikipedia i posted, it lists plenty of examples of all nations from WWII engaging in rape.
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And here, we are not even talking about a conflict situation, mind you! This incidentally invalidates the argument that the widespread practice of sexual assault by US forces is simply a consequence of war. 

Occupation = wartime
If it were not the case one would argue that any rapes comitted in Iraq since 2003 don't "count" since it wasn't wartime.

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One in Eight Army Recruits Require Moral Waiver
http://usmilitary.about.com/b/2008/04/07/one-in-eight-army-recruits-require-moral-waiver.htm

Note that the tendency of US armed forces to recruit criminals has increased since 2008:

A good counter-example to this, again, is Islamic Iran, where offenders are not handed "moral waivers" so they can join the army.

Maybe because Iran didn't have the need to because they never has the equivelent, because they already accepted anyone into the frontlines so long as they could carry a rifle. Was this justified in a wartime environment that was literally a question of survival to the Islamic Republic, of course, but trying to compare the two is ridiculous.

The US was handing out waivers because they previously had extremely high standards that no other military of our scale came close to in terms of quality of soldiers. Take Russia for example, they don't need to hand out waivers of people of "low moral integrity" because they already let those people in the military. In Iran, the miltary HAS to take them because of universal conscription.

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Moreover, I don't need to remind anyone here how US society performs in terms of crime rates, compared to any other developed nation, or to a great number of developing nations, do I? This inevitably reflects itself in its armed forces.

About the overall correlation between US society and sexual forms of violence, we can consult:

Thomas Walter Herbert, Sexual Violence and American Manhood, Harvard University Press, 2002

Actually it doesn't, Grossman indicates that the US military actually has a lower rate of sociopaths, psychopaths, and people who are otherwise inclined toward non-state violence for the reason that these people tend not to function under authority and as such, don't fit in well with a well-disciplined army.

Also, like i said, i didn't want to turn this into a debate over Iran because i know the obviously charged atmosphere, but now that you've brought it up i'll respond to it.

Iran, and the middle east as a whole has a long history of violence against women. I'll preface this with saying that Iran is extremely liberal when compared to it's neighbours with regard to women's rights, and i really do applaud them for that, but that doesn't mean they're perfect by a long shot.

For instance:
http://www.bodazey.com/violence_that_may_never_end.html

http://www.iranhumanrights.org/2009/01/repression-women/

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Now....


That being said.

I do accept your premise that sexual violence in the US military might(I include the qualification because i don't yet know precisely just how this compares to other countries and just how much is media hype which i think we can all recognize as a substantive factor) reflect larger trends found in the United States. For instance, i do agree that violence against woman internally within the military is particularly troubling. What i'm objecting to is the assertion that there's some sort of institutional reason that the US military is exceptional when compared to other armies in history.

Now a discussion as to why sexual assault is prevalent today in some places, but not others would be an interesting discussion that I have to confess I don't have an answer to.
Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 11:24:50 AM by Ayyash

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what about we drop a nuke on Washington? >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
  

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The reason rape wasn't prevalent in the Iran-Iraq war by Iranian forces isn't because of some supposed moral superiority, but because of the basic fact that Iran didn't really operate into Iraqi occupied territory in any real capacity. They might have on the tactical level, but never strategically. They weren't exposes to any of the stimulai

Iranian forces entered Iraqi territory on several occasions, advanced as far as the gates of Basra and held the Fao Peninsula for a considerable period of time. Plus, numerous border towns and villages came under Iranian control again and again. Therefore we are perfectly entitled to compare.

Also, my guess is that the war veterans on this board, would surely neither be pleased by, nor concur with the suggestion that they would have resorted to large-scale rape of Iraqi civilians, had they just staid there a bit longer.


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Moreover, the fact that rape has been prevalent in many different conflicts including Muslims prove it doesn't come down to individual piety or morality, but rather, the forces of war including what Grossman terms the wind of hate, depersonalization and dehumanization, etc.

Being nominally a Muslim does not imply piety. I would suggest to acquaint yourself a little more with the sociology and mindset of Iranian soldiers during the Sacred Defence, whose conduct has pretty much to do with their cultural-societal habits and with their beliefs.


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I didn't want to bring it up because of the firestorm it would create, but now that you're specifically referencing the IRI's behavior, I feel I have to. The allegations of widespread systemic rape in Iranian prisons as a form of punishment proves Iran isn't a unique entity, but just as vulnerable as the rest of humanity to the allure of atrocity.

Allegations made by groups supported by none other than the US... However, we are going off topic, my point about Iranian forces during the Sacred Defence stands.


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This was even admitted by Iranian authorities, this isn't debate at all, this is established fact.

Actually, a parliamentary commission tasked with investigating the allegations reached the conclusion that they were fabricated.


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see above

Japanese forces started to systematically terrorize Chinese civilians almost as soon as they set foot there. Contrary to Iran with regards to Iraqi civilians. The behaviours of these two armies were clearly not the same.


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Actually it did happen all over, look at the "War Rape" page on wikipedia i posted, it lists plenty of examples of all nations from WWII engaging in rape.

And how does that adress my comparative analysis? That it happened in different conflicts and involving different armies, does not mean that there do not exist serious qualititative and quantitative variations, nor that it certain instances, it did not occur at all. As shown in my previous post, US forces have often ranked among the major offenders in this area.


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Occupation = wartime
If it were not the case one would argue that any rapes comitted in Iraq since 2003 don't "count" since it wasn't wartime.

US troops in Okinawa have not faced the least armed opposition since the end of World War II. Nor is the Japanese society in a state of armed conflict, while violent crime is much less widespread than in the US. To suggest that "war" has been going on in Japan since 1945, is simply absurd.

This is in total contrast with Iraq, where armed conflict has been a daily reality since 2003, and has involved US forces on a permanent basis.  


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Maybe because Iran didn't have the need to because they never has the equivelent, because they already accepted anyone into the frontlines so long as they could carry a rifle. Was this justified in a wartime environment that was literally a question of survival to the Islamic Republic, of course, but trying to compare the two is ridiculous.

As a matter of fact, you will find no individuals convicted of serious crimes in the ranks of Iran's armed forces, nor would you have found any during the Sacred Defence. It is simply that Iran does not recruit criminals, contrary to the USA.


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In Iran, the miltary HAS to take them because of universal conscription.

That too, would be incorrect.

In Iran, convicted sex offenders and child abusers will rather be found at the morgues, after being hung to death for their crimes - and certainly not in the armed forces.


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Actually it doesn't, Grossman indicates that the US military actually has a lower rate of sociopaths, psychopaths, and people who are otherwise inclined toward non-state violence for the reason that these people tend not to function under authority and as such, don't fit in well with a well-disciplined army.

The links I provided state that in 2008, one out of eight US soldiers required a "moral waiver". Since then, this number doubled. Which brings us to something like one out of four, or 25%. It seems to me that this is quite an important rate.  


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Iran, and the middle east as a whole has a long history of violence against women. I'll preface this with saying that Iran is extremely liberal when compared to it's neighbours with regard to women's rights, and i really do applaud them for that, but that doesn't mean they're perfect by a long shot.

The topic is the recurrence of rape committed by US troops, as opposed to the conduct of Iranian forces during the Sacred Defence, rather than women's rights in general - not that there isn't much to say about the myth that women would enjoy "more" rights in western liberal societies in comparison with Islamic societies.

The US military's record of war crimes in modern history is far worse than Iran's.


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For instance:
http://www.bodazey.com/violence_that_may_never_end.html

A "fashion, lifestyle and modeling" website (as it presents itself), is hardly a valid source for sociological studies in my book.
Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 02:23:45 AM by Rakhsh786

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