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if some members converted to Shia how this can be a good example for the Sunnis? an example of cooperation is Hamas ...

I see what you mean. I guess the problem is conversion here. But generally speaking, an organization accepting both Sunni and Shia members, seems an interesting concept to me.
Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 10:40:33 PM by Rakhsh786

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Iet them say and do what they want

An Important point: our support of the palestinian cause is that of principle ... We dont want any thing from them ... We will stand with them even if they hurt us .. On purpose or not ... We will stand for palestine even if they dont want it any more... Palestine has to return... This is a historical battle that will not be lost Inchallah.

The results of this battle will revive the real Islam ... Real islam and not fake ones ... Turkey and the Sunnis gave up this dear land... As Sayid Mosa Sadr said, this land will only be liberated by the true believers... Shia and their allies will get this land back... Alone as it seems
land is not really the principle  (other than the masjed of beytol-moghaddas), The main principle is saying no to oppression and fighting oppression , and yes part of that oppression is the confiscation of land (but land is not a principle itself) . If the Sunnis want to accept this oppression and live with it, that is their stupidity. Regardless of what the sunnis think and do, shia should never recognize and accept Israel. The reason for that is that if they do not fight the zionist oppression now, tomorrow it will engulf the Shias as well because the Zionists being the greedy monsters they are, will never be satisfied.
"You will never achieve righteousness until you give away (in the way of God) what you love the most" Quran 3:92
The wisdom in this verse is used in star wars:
"Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose, for the fear of loss is the path to the dark side"- Master Yoda advising young Anakin.

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Syrian SNC Official: A Free Syria Will Never Attack Israel
Kouichi Shirayanagi | 24 February 2012

Syria’s revolution strives to liberate the Syrian people from the dictatorship of Bashar al-Assad, not to establish a government that will attack Israel, according to Riad Muasses, the France-based Syrian National Council (SNC) press spokesman.

While Muasses said that Syria’s new foreign policy vis-à-vis Russia, Iran and Hezbollah should be decided by a forthcoming parliament, he believed it likely that the new Syrian government would want to distance itself from those parties. “We should have nothing to do with Hezbollah, what have they done for Syria?” Muasses asked.


http://www.tunisia-live.net/2012/02/24/syrian-snc-official-a-free-syria-will-never-attack-israel/

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guys please do not make this issue as a Sunni-Shia thing ...... sectarianism suits the fat saoodis and the rest of the poodle gang . We Iranians never had Sectarian Issues and thats what makes us better than arabs ... If we stand for Falistin  then its because of our principles not because of who is shia and who is sunni and what Hamas  does  ...
Sunni or Shia  are no different ... esp in Iran ... Imam Khomeini himself urged strongly for Shia Sunni unity . Hundreds and Thousands of Sunnis fought for Their country Iran against Sunni Arabs ... alot got Martyred . Surprising to whole Arab world ,  there was not even a single case where a Iranian Sunni might have worked for foreign demons against nation ... mashallah ... Nobody from Sistan vs Balushastan supported the Rigi haromzadeh  gang  though balushis r majority Sunnis ...

Always Remember Islam is not abt sects and disagreements over Sahaba (ra)  . Allah is Supreme and Mohammad (SAW) was his messenger , Qoran is Our book ... Thats the basic idea where Sunnis or Shia or whatever sect  gather ... thats the common ground for us ... Majority of my national  brothers r shiites ,  they love Shaheed Imam Hossain ibne Ali (Ra) ... So do I ... They love and follow Heydar Karrar (Ra) ... So do I ( my favorite most personality )... probably they dont like some Sahaba (ra) who I recognize like Umar ibne Khattab (ra) or or Khaled ibne Valid (ra) ... well Let Khoda be the Judge ...... Our bond is formed on basis of our mutual faith in Prophet Muhammad SAW and Quran and the Supreme Lord . if we start discriminating against each other then what will be the difference between us and those across khalije fars who have ruined everything ? .... Iranian Social values are far better than small time discriminations ... and we have proven this during sacred defence ... nothing can divide us ....

Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 11:52:40 PM by Emirzaad

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If this is true, which Im still not convinced, how on earth will Hamas reconcile its own resistance domestically against Zionist Israel while regionally they are aiding the same Zionist occupier?Is this not shooting themselves in the foot?How many times has Israel bombed Gaza, while Qatar ( where they relocating to if also this is true) has stood by and watched without even one word of condemnation?How does this move serve Hamas's interests of resisting Israel?

Even with the unity talks Hamas is having with Fatah.The same Fatah that left behind piles of intelligence documents they were compiling for the CIA?The files Hamas is in possession of!Fatah was spying on Hamas for Mossad and CIA while they were running Gaza.Hamas knows this and its one of the reasons Hamas forcefully kicked Fatah out of Gaza.Fatah hasnt changed, they still the same Fatah that works for the CIA and Mossad.Yet Hamas now wants to go to bed, so it speak, with the same guys they kicked out few years ago.What has changed with Fatah? I understand the concept of unity and not be divided.However shouldnt the basis of this unity be the consolidation of restance against Israel?This is the only was unity of this kind can be justified. 
None of you is a believer until he loves for his brother that which he loves for himself - The last Messenger

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I dont believe that the problems we face are Sunni-Shia, Arab-Persian or what so ever... the main problems we face are political ones... However some sides managed to cover their political view with sectarian and ethnical slogans ... this unfortunately got some acceptance by some people ... not all of them.

When i mentioned Hamas and Islamic Jihad.. i talked about the Sunni-Shia issue because it exist there unfortunately... this meant to be information so that we can asses the situation better ... and that we dont put our head in sand ...

From all the replies here its obvious that we ALL are against this division ... There are extremists from all sides.. Sunni , Shia, arab nationalists, iranian nationalists .. ect ... those should be stopped from creating damage using these fragile lines.

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What else can be done to defeat the enemies' attempts to instrumentalize sectarian or national / "ethnic" faultlines in order to advance their imperialist agendas? 

I've been thinking of a concept that might be useful, namely the engineering of a transnational Islamic movement in the Arab world. Similar to the Muslim Brotherhood, which has autonomous branches in every Arab country, but nonetheless maintains some overall coherence as a transnational, decentralized movement.

Such a movement could benefit from Iranian support on the organizational, ideological, financial and intelligence levels, but should not have an obvious organic link to Iran, unlike Lebanon's Hezbollah for example, so as not to provide the enemy with excuses for misrepresenting it as a "tool" of Iranian foreign policy. Membership should be open to both Sunnis and Shia Muslims. Tactical alliance with anti-imperial secular forces might or might not be envisaged.

Most importantly, the aims of this organization, which at the same time would make it politically viable, should be focusing on specific topics, namely:

- Resisting zionist occupation and warmongering untill the inalienable legal rights of the Palestinian people are reestablished.

- Resisting western neo-imperialism, promoting the ideology of Islamic self-reliance, working against the economic, political, cultural dependence of Arab states on the USA and EU.

A great majority of the Arab people, including the demographically dominant youth, share these aspirations. Self-determination and resistance against centuries of bullying and exploitation by the imperial powers was and is clearly one of the main demands of protesters in the ongoing uprisings. However, for various reasons, including incompetence on the part of some of the opposition figures who rose to power after the overthrow of local dictators, nefarious meddling by the enemy, etc, these demands have so far not been sufficiently translated into concrete policies. It is useful to remind that the old, "traditional opposition", including the Muslim Broterhood, had already lost some of their legitimacy with the youth when the protests broke out, because these groups had compromised to some extent with the lackey regimes (for ex, some of Egypt's Ikhwan accepted to take part in institutional politics under Mubarak).

So I believe such a movement would respond to a presently unmet political demand and fill a void in the Arab world. Some actors such as Turkey's AKP government or various Arab proponents of "American Islam", are trying to hijack the anti-imperial theme, when in fact they are themselves very ostensibly tied to the arrogant powers. These tactics can only work for a limited period though, and are bound to fail as the Arab public progressively ends up recognizing the enemy's plots. However, by the time this happens, those who made false promises will have seized power, and moreover the people will be left without a political alternative - which must thus be offered to them.

This kind of organization would also, by focusing entirely on the struggle against zionist and western occupation, contribute to undermining the enemy's divide and rule strategies, by neutralizing the sectarian or nationalist / "ethnicist" discourse, and by re-setting the political agenda of the people and centering it around the main cause of instability and crisis in the region, namely the global arrogance's imperial onslaught.
Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 07:56:03 PM by Rakhsh786

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Rakhsh786,

This needs a long discussion ... but there are several points:

1- The idea of resisting zionistm, usa and others cannt be the major idea behind any arab popular movement at this time... Many people may support you but will not join you. These topics were used so badly by many regimes and movements... they lost lots of their importance to the people

2- In my opinion the major points should be state building and economic ideas and concepts ... derived from Islam... thats something the arabs badly need ... They need a modern islamic model to build their states ... the resistance will benefit from this for sure


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I am not quite so sure what to make out of this news. What I do know is that Hamas leader was in Tehran during the Fajr celebrations. I assume that meant consolidation and coordination before the Palestinians officially issued the statement as
at the head of this thread.

What I am trying to say is that may be many members here are just too quick to judge the Palestinian leadership with ignoring some public details, not to mention the possible secrets agreements between Hamas and Iran.

Time will tell!


catsoo

Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 07:52:42 PM by Catsoo

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The members of this board have flagged this post as unwanted or inappropriate.
February 28, 2012, 07:03:13 PM - Hidden.

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now they elevated hazrat Ali to besides Prophet Mahammad (saw)?


Source?


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I share the same view as honorable gentleman in this video


I am curious, what's your opinion on this, spectator?:

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Syrian SNC Official: A Free Syria Will Never Attack Israel
    Kouichi Shirayanagi | 24 February 2012

    Syria’s revolution strives to liberate the Syrian people from the dictatorship of Bashar al-Assad, not to establish a government that will attack Israel, according to Riad Muasses, the France-based Syrian National Council (SNC) press spokesman.

    While Muasses said that Syria’s new foreign policy vis-à-vis Russia, Iran and Hezbollah should be decided by a forthcoming parliament, he believed it likely that the new Syrian government would want to distance itself from those parties. “We should have nothing to do with Hezbollah, what have they done for Syria?” Muasses asked.


http://www.tunisia-live.net/2012/02/24/syrian-snc-official-a-free-syria-will-never-attack-israel/


Or this?:

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Op-Ed Contributor
Iran’s Achilles’ Heel
By EFRAIM HALEVY
Published: February 7, 2012


THE public debate in America and Israel these days is focused obsessively on whether to attack Iran in order to halt its nuclear weapons ambitions; hardly any attention is being paid to how events in Syria could result in a strategic debacle for the Iranian government. Iran’s foothold in Syria enables the mullahs in Tehran to pursue their reckless and violent regional policies — and its presence there must be ended.

Ensuring that Iran is evicted from its regional hub in Damascus would cut off Iran’s access to its proxies (Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza) and visibly dent its domestic and international prestige, possibly forcing a hemorrhaging regime in Tehran to suspend its nuclear policies. This would be a safer and more rewarding option than the military one.

As President Bashar al-Assad’s government falters, Syria is becoming Iran’s Achilles’ heel. Iran has poured a vast array of resources into the country. There are Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps encampments and Iranian weapons and advisers throughout Syria. And Iranian-controlled Hezbollah forces from Lebanon have joined in butchering the Syrians who have risen up against Mr. Assad. Iran is intent on assuring its hold over the country regardless of what happens to Mr. Assad — and Israel and the West must prevent this at all costs.

Sadly, the opportunities presented by Syria’s meltdown seem to be eluding Israeli leaders. Last week, Israel’s military intelligence chief spoke of the 200,000 missiles and rockets in Gaza, Lebanon and Syria that could reach all of Israel’s population centers. And there is a growing risk that advanced Syrian weapons might fall into the hands of terrorist groups. Iran’s presence in Damascus is vital to maintaining these threats.

At this stage, there is no turning back; Mr. Assad must step down. For Israel, the crucial question is not whether he falls but whether the Iranian presence in Syria will outlive his government. Getting Iran booted out of Syria is essential for Israel’s security. And if Mr. Assad goes, Iranian hegemony over Syria must go with him. Anything less would rob Mr. Assad’s departure of any significance.

But Israel should not be the lone or even the principal actor in speeding his exit. Any workable outcome in Syria will have to involve the United States, Russia and Arab countries. America must offer Russia incentives to stop protecting the Assad regime, which will likely fall the moment Moscow withdraws its support. A force with a mandate from the Arab League should then ensure stability until a new Syrian government can take over.

The current standoff in Syria presents a rare chance to rid the world of the Iranian menace to international security and well-being. And ending Iran’s presence there poses less of a risk to international commerce and security than harsher sanctions or war.

Russia and China, both of which vetoed a United Nations resolution last week calling on Mr. Assad to step down, should realize that his downfall could serve their interests, too. After all, Iranian interventionism could wreak havoc in Muslim-majority areas to Russia’s south and China’s west. And a nuclear-armed Iran would pose a serious potential threat on Russia’s southern border.

Russia’s interests in Syria are not synonymous with Iran’s, and Moscow can now prove this by withdrawing its unwavering support for Mr. Assad. Russia simply wishes to maintain its access to Syria’s Mediterranean ports in Tartus and Latakia and to remain a major arms supplier to Damascus. If Washington is willing to allow that, and not to sideline Russia as it did before intervening in Libya, the convergence of American and Russian interests in Iran and Syria could pave the way for Mr. Assad’s downfall.

Once this is achieved, the entire balance of forces in the region would undergo a sea change. Iranian-sponsored terrorism would be visibly contained; Hezbollah would lose its vital Syrian conduit to Iran and Lebanon could revert to long-forgotten normalcy; Hamas fighters in Gaza would have to contemplate a future without Iranian weaponry and training; and the Iranian people might once again rise up against the regime that has brought them such pain and suffering.

Those who see this scenario as a daydream should consider the alternative: a post-Assad government still wedded to Iran with its fingers on the buttons controlling long-range Syrian missiles with chemical warheads that can strike anywhere in Israel. This is a certain prescription for war, and Israel would have no choice but to prevent it.

Fortunately, Mr. Assad and his allies have unwittingly created an opportunity to defuse the Iranian threat. If the international community does not seize it and Iranian influence in Syria emerges intact, the world will face a choice between a military strike and even more crippling sanctions, which could cause oil prices to skyrocket and throw the world economy off balance. The United States and Russia should wish for neither.

Syria has created a third option. We do not have the luxury of ignoring it.

Efraim Halevy, a former Israeli national security adviser and ambassador, was director of the Mossad from 1998 to 2002.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/08/opinion/to-weaken-iran-start-with-syria.html


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Spectator prefers Hizb Tahrir .. this party wants to create a single islamic country with a khalifa ... still dreaming of an ottoman state...

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1- The idea of resisting zionistm, usa and others cannt be the major idea behind any arab popular movement at this time... Many people may support you but will not join you. These topics were used so badly by many regimes and movements... they lost lots of their importance to the people

2- In my opinion the major points should be state building and economic ideas and concepts ... derived from Islam... thats something the arabs badly need ... They need a modern islamic model to build their states ... the resistance will benefit from this for sure

You made some important points.

Indeed these causes were often hijacked and misused by regimes and movements in the past. But couldn't the same be said of domestic reforms? Many regimes / movements presented alternative economic and institutional models as well, but equally failed in their endeavour; yet, the topic of rebuilding the domestic political and economic order obviously didn't loose its relevance to the people.

But I have to agree that not unlike Iranian greenies or shahis, who will accuse the Islamic Republic of "squandering" huge amounts of resources to aid the Palestinians and Lebanese, inevitably many Arabs too will fail to see the inherent correlation between lack of independence or subservience to the global arrogance on the one hand, and domestic issues such as social, economic and political development. In short, the problems of the Arab world are a direct consequence of their dependence upon the west. Fighting this dependence and progressing in terms of economic and political development, are one and the same thing, as the example of Islamic Iran shows.

It is perfectly understandable that the ordinary citizen might not immediately perceive this link, and focus on immediate, everyday matters such as poverty, corruption, inefficiency of public institutions, etc. Nonetheless, I believe the message should be conveyed that the best precondition for improvement in these areas, is to break the shackles of imperial subjugation. Whether this can be achieved through a popular movement is, as you say, questionable. Instead, one could conceive an avant-garde movement though, built around a revolutionary elite capable of setting things in motion - this procedure was succesfully probed with Hezbollah in Lebanon already.

There is more to say, I will add later.
Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 08:41:41 PM by Rakhsh786

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Spectator   , U r a Pakistani , right ?

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Rakhsh786,

One more point...

The resistance groups, or any other new group that is holding the slogan of resistance will not be able to build a state before the ultimate defeat of USA/Israel ... in the time being we have two examples. Hezbollah in Lebanon formed the gov with its allies. Hamas has the gov. in Gaza since 2005 i guess... They could not do anything... Both failed to make any improvement in the situation of the state... On one hand they are not allowed by US and its allies ... on the other hand they make mistake after the other... this even affects the support to their role in the resistance .... Currently i think it would be better if Hezbollah and Hamas just quit the gov and do resistance ... would be better for them

Yes some problems of the arabs are because of the west .. but many problems are because of ourselves as well... and as it is in Quran, Allah will not change this till we change ourselves  ???

Only one arab man can improve the arabs...he disappeared some 1300 years ago ... hopefully it will not take that long for him to come back ;-)

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Spectator   , U r a Pakistani , right ?
Spectator is from the majority Alawis from Turkey

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Spectator is from the majority Alawis from Turkey

lol but he/she sounds like a pkaistani .

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The resistance groups, or any other new group that is holding the slogan of resistance will not be able to build a state before the ultimate defeat of USA/Israel ...

Which is why I believe we need some new transnational organization with branches in every Arab country, which would be free from any form of sectiarianism, and would do just that: resist the occupiers (politically or otherwise, depending on what the situation commands). Because without advances in this arena, there can be no succesful Islamic state building, no succesful Islamic economy, etc. I'm not saying the Arabs themselves made no mistakes.


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hopefully it will not take that long for him to come back ;-)

InshaAllah.
Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 10:18:26 PM by Rakhsh786

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@Maydayfire:
"land is not really the principle"
It does have a little bit of importance.
We are commanded, "drive them out of the places where they drove you out."
In just 1948, after Zionists laid a massacre on the town of Deir Yassin, 750,000 Palestinians fled and were not allowed to return, and their lands have been confiscated.

@Emerizaad:
"guys please do not make this issue as a Sunni-Shia thing "
I want to avoid making this a sectarian issue because Islamic unity is very important to me; but just being analytical, perhaps the Hamas move is motivated by the natural tendency for a group like Sunnis Arabs to associate with other Sunnis Arabs. That may not have been their conscious decision, but the feeling that comes from that might have influenced their move.
Again, I'm not trying to be sectarian, just analytical.

@Rakhsh786
"transnational Islamic movement in the Arab world"
Similar to the Organization of Islamic Conference with its Islamic Bank?

@Rakhsh:
"Resisting zionist occupation and warmongering ... western neo-imperialism ..."
The Wahabi type Muslims accuse Iran of aiding and abetting Zionism by giving info to the USA during the US invasion of Afghanistan, sending death squads into Iraq, verbally supporting the anti-Qadaffi rebels, etc.
The guy who posted as "spectator" is an example of that type of Muslim who makes such claims.

@the8March:
"state building and economic ideas  ... derived from Islam...They need a modern islamic model to build their states"
Actually, an Islamic currency based on the gold dinar would hurt the dollar, and wide spread non-usury banking would hurt the global Rothschild banking system (Federal Reserve, Bank of England, International Monetary Fund, World Bank, Bank of International Settlements, etc)

@Catsoo:
"I am not quite so sure what to make out of this news"
I agree that it is too early to determine too much.

"not to mention the possible secrets agreements between Hamas and Iran."
And also possible secret agreements between Hamas and Syria.

@Moon:
"Fatah was spying on Hamas for Mossad and CIA while they were running Gaza.Hamas knows this ..."
Maybe now Hamas can spy on Fatah.











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Similar to the Organization of Islamic Conference with its Islamic Bank?$

No. The OIC is an inter-governmental organization, while I was imagining a non-state, political organization or party (that's the difference between "international" and "transnatinoal"). Like the Muslim Brotherhood, but more focused, better organized, and not tainted by an image of sclerotization and corruption.


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The Wahabi type Muslims accuse Iran of aiding and abetting Zionism by giving info to the USA during the US invasion of Afghanistan, sending death squads into Iraq,

I know that very well, brother. Do you mean the wahhabis would level the same ridiculous accusations against the hypothetical organization we are discussing here? That could be possible indeed. The movement envisaged here would be centered on the Arab world, and would we independent, although geopolitically on tIslamic Iran's side. By actively resisting colonialism in those countries, while the salafists keep targetting other Muslims, such a movement could possibly expose the wahhabi deception with greater efficiency than Iran could do, because it would be present on the ground, and would be fully indigeneous to the concerned societies. And, it would give the wahhabis more headache: they'd have to spend much more on propaganda, not only to demonize and try to contain Iran, Hezbollah, orthodox and sufi Sunnis, but also this new movement. Ultimately, this could lead to the marginalization of wahhabism in Arab society.
Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 02:51:03 PM by Rakhsh786

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Would the movement resist imperialism through information (newspapers, books, lectures, internet, etc)? Or through political participation (lobbying politicians, donating to favorable political groups), or through military means, or a combo of the above?

Would it have a hierarchy (president, cabinet, etc), or would it be voluntary participation (flat distributed power)? You called it decentralized, so I guess it would have distributed power. But then you suggested a revolutionary elite, which would make it centralized, as I understand it.

So, it sounds like a NGO that would replace the al-Ikhwan, but then this movement could sell out also, or have some members that sell out, and so also lose legitamacy.

How would it get started? Who is the new Hasan al-Bannah that could initiate it?

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^Good questions, bro.


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Would the movement resist imperialism through information (newspapers, books, lectures, internet, etc)? Or through political participation (lobbying politicians, donating to favorable political groups), or through military means, or a combo of the above?

Active participation in the information battle would be a must in any case.

The same can be said of political participation: though such an organization could start as a numerically limited avant-garde, it will have to participate in national politics, but with a focus on foreign policy and regional questions, since these will be seen as a pre-condition for any type of sustainable domestic development.

The question then is more what type of political participation. If it manages the transition between restricted elite and mass movement succesfully, like Hezbollah in Lebanon, it can then envisage participation in elections etc, as long as this is deemed strategically beneficial to the movement.

In the meantime, it could either function like a classical political party, or an informal grassroots movement practicing "street politics", or a political lobby group . Personally, I find the latter idea very interesting.

The issue of armed resistance is another complex one. The organization should avoid entering armed conflict against the Arab regimes. As concerns the zionist and NATO occupiers, all options should be considered, but I have no definitive answer. It will depend on many other criteria. The first priority for such an organization would be its survival untill it has gained enough clout.


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Would it have a hierarchy (president, cabinet, etc), or would it be voluntary participation (flat distributed power)? You called it decentralized, so I guess it would have distributed power.

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But then you suggested a revolutionary elite, which would make it centralized, as I understand it.

I was mainly referring to decentralization at the international level, ie the organization should consist of autonomous national branches (Tunisian, Egyptian, Libyan, Yemeni, Jordanian, etc); but also retain consistency as an overarching entity. Like the MB and its various national branches, which have their own programs focusing on their respective countries, but are linked and support each other nonetheless.

On the national level, each branch can itself be a centralized organization with a well-defined hierarchy. I evoked the notion of a revolutionary elite after brother the8march suggested that creating a mass movement from scratch based on these ideals might prove unrealistic.   


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So, it sounds like a NGO that would replace the al-Ikhwan, but then this movement could sell out also, or have some members that sell out, and so also lose legitamacy.

That would be theoretically possible. But since Iran would help co-engineer this organization, and since its whole purpose would be to resist imperialism, this will contribute to keeping it on the right path.


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How would it get started? Who is the new Hasan al-Bannah that could initiate it?

Well, lack of competent leadership seems to be a weakness of current social movements in the Arab world. Also, it could be argued that the diffuse nature of these movements isn't particularly prone to accomodating the classic role of political leaders.

So it will most probably have to start not without leaders, but with leaders whose role in the rise of the organization is reduced compared to the past.

A good starting point for such an organization could be the Islamic Awakening conference regularly held in Tehran since more than a year. The conference now has a permanent bureau.



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