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Offline Firoz Ali

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Shamgen: The ‘Muslim Union’
« on: April 05, 2011, 03:44:00 PM »
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“There are two blue lines on the top and bottom of the star in the Israeli flag. These lines are symbols. The top line represents the Euphrates, the bottom line the Nile. According to Jewish belief these borders are the natural borders of the state of Israel,” Professor Necmedin Erbakan (1926-2011), former Prime Minister of Turkey.

The idea of a joint visa between Turkey, Iran, Syria and Iraq – was originally floated by the Prime minister of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdogan. He coined the name ‘Shamgen’ from Syria’s historical name ‘Al-Sham’ which once stretched from Mesopotania in Iraq all the way to Eastern Mediterranean, Jordan, Lebanon and the entire occupied Palestine. Erdogan seems to have taken his cue from European Union which is based on ‘Schengen’.

The Zionist dream of Eretz Israel was going well as planned in 1918 by the World Zionist Organization until the 1979 Islamic Revolution toppled Zionists poodle in Iran. Then in 2002, the pro-Islamic party AKP came into power in the pro-Israel Kemalist Turkey. It was followed by American invasion of Iraq to dismember the country on ethnic basis for the domination of Israel. Now, the oil-rich Iraqi Kurd region is under US-Israel control. This is taken as a grave threat by other three countries with Kurd minorities – Iran, Turkey and Syria.

Last month, Iran’s deputy Vice-president, Ali Aghamohammadi had said: “As offered by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, tourists can visit the four countries with the joint visa”. Hopefully, in the near future, both Lebanon and Jordan, the other two countries carved out of historic Al-Sham by the British and French colonists – will join this Muslim Union.

With the exception of Jordan – Turkey, Iraq (even under US occupation), Syria and Lebanon have come much closer to the Islamic Republic during the last five years. Both trade and tourism are on the rise among the five countries. Since AKP victory, the trade between Turkey and Iran has jumped from $1 billion to $10 billion. The annual figures of Iranian tourists to Turkey have jumped from 600,000 (2002) to two million in 2010.

In 2010 – the volume of trade between Tehran, Ankara, Damascus and Baghdad was $40 billion which is expected to increase to $200 billion with the Shamgen project. These capitals are also planning a free-trade zone project SIIT (Syria-Iran-Iraq-Turkey), under which each of the member country will be able to use the others’ national sea territorial waters (12 nautical miles from its baseline).

Erdogan showed his disdain for Muslim sectarianism when he said in public that Turkey doesn’t want Saudi ‘royals’ to recreate a new Karbala in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia for the Shia communities. Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu plans to visit Bahrain to hold talks with Bahrain’s Foreign Minister Khalid bin Ahmad bin Muhammad Al Khalifa, as well as several other high-level officials and representatives of political groups. After Bahrain, Ahmet Davutoglu, will visit Damascus to meet Bashar al-Assad.
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2011/04/05/shamgen-the-muslim-union/

nice pic at lnk

Offline Apollyon

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Shamgen: The ‘Muslim Union’
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2011, 03:05:39 AM »
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This should be the goal of all muslims, to fit all ethnic groups and nationalities of Islamic culture into a strong, cohesive union where each nationality does its part in strengthening the whole.

It is the only hope for economically out competing the EU, China, US, Russia, India, Brazil, Australia, &c..

However, I also believe it is important not to baselessly combine nationalities into pointless amalgams and needlessly centralize authority.
I would like for each culture to learn from one another, and indeed there is plenty to be learned from nations with successful industrial models as turkey.
But I also believe it is important to safeguard our individual ethnic and cultural identities without isolating ourselves from one another.

There is plenty unique about Iran, Turkey, Iraq, and Syria that need not be copied and pasted into one another in a process of culturally destructive homogenization resulting from open borders compounded with meager mechanisms of promoting one's indigenous culture.

Don't get me wrong, if there were any nations I would like to see Iran develop a very close relationship with, along with all relevant cultural ties, it would be our brothers in Iraq, Syria, and Turkey.

It's just, Iran should be cautious in these times when it comes to matters that concern our unique national identity, with all due respect to our Turkish, Syrian, and Iraqi friends who all have glorious cultures and great histories of contributing to humanity of their own.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 03:07:55 AM by Apollyon »
"The sword is victorious over money, the master-will subdues again the plunderer-will. . . A power can be overthrown only by another power, not by a principle, and only one power that can confront money is left. Money is overthrown and abolished by blood. Life is alpha and omega . . . It is the fact of facts within the world-as-history."

- Oswald Spengler

Offline MO_SOBOH

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Shamgen: The ‘Muslim Union’
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2011, 09:29:49 AM »
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Quote:

“There are two blue lines on the top and bottom of the star in the Israeli flag. These lines are symbols. The top line represents the Euphrates, the bottom line the Nile. According to Jewish belief these borders are the natural borders of the state of Israel,” Professor Necmedin Erbakan (1926-2011), former Prime Minister of Turkey.

Unquote:

This is the first time I heard about this.... thats just plain racist! Even their flag represents racism!
Im Sunni by mind, Shia by Heart, and Muslim by soul! La Ellaha Ela Allah!

Offline Iranium

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Shamgen: The ‘Muslim Union’
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2011, 06:30:59 PM »
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@MO_SOBOH
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This is the first time I heard about this.... thats just plain racist! Even their flag represents racism!

I believe the establishment in the occupied territory is called 'Israel' to the founders of Zionist & what Professor Necmedin Erbakan (1926-2011), former Prime Minister of Turkey is talking about, is termed 'Greater Israel'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Israel

Greater Israel occasionally refers to the Promised Land (defined in Genesis 15:18-21) or to the Land of Israel, and is also called Complete Land of Israel or "Entire Land of Israel" (Hebrew: ארץ ישראל השלמה‎, Eretz Yisrael Hashlemah). This is a more accurate translation than "Greater" Israel, which is used in English but has no real counterpart in Hebrew.
The Bible contains three geographical definitions of the Land of Israel. The first, found in Genesis 15:18-21, is vague. It describes a large territory, "from the brook of Egypt to the Euphrates", comprising all of modern-day Israel, the Palestinian Territories, and Lebanon, as well as large parts of Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. The proportion of current Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey included in this territory is debatable.
The other two definitions are found in Numbers 34:1-15 and Ezekiel 47:13-20 and describe a smaller territory (see the map included in this article).

In the beginning, the Zionist were not only proud of their accomplishment of establishing 'Israel' & the occupation of Jerusalem but also intended to stretch to the boarders with Iran! To establish 'Greater Israel' but with the resilience of Islamic Resistance( notably Hezbullah ); they found it too costly to expand. In fact, a few years ago there was an article in the newspaper where some Israeli official claimed that 'Khaybar' ( if you are a Shia you should probably be aware of where I'm talking about ) territory in Saudi Arabia should be given to Israel!

However, you will be happy to hear that I heard the great man you have his picture on say " ...that the hopes of establishing Greater Israel has now faded!" in one of his speeches.

Note: another group that pushes for the establishment of 'Greater Israel' are the Evangelical Christians in the USA; unless I'm wrongly informed. But one thing for sure is that they 'religiously'( both meaning apply, metaphoric(vigorously) & belief ) support the establishment of 'Greater Israel'. I believe it has to do with their belief of the 'second coming of Christ'.

Back to topic: I found this video somewhat relevant
(Khalid Yasin) What the non-muslim experts say Small | Large


I don't really like this guy but hes got some useful things I think we should extract from his lecture.

Offline Apollyon

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Shamgen: The ‘Muslim Union’
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2011, 05:37:25 AM »
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Greater Israel occasionally refers to the Promised Land (defined in Genesis 15:18-21) or to the Land of Israel, and is also called Complete Land of Israel or "Entire Land of Israel" (Hebrew: ארץ ישראל השלמה‎, Eretz Yisrael Hashlemah). This is a more accurate translation than "Greater" Israel, which is used in English but has no real counterpart in Hebrew.
The Bible contains three geographical definitions of the Land of Israel. The first, found in Genesis 15:18-21, is vague. It describes a large territory, "from the brook of Egypt to the Euphrates", comprising all of modern-day Israel, the Palestinian Territories, and Lebanon, as well as large parts of Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. The proportion of current Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey included in this territory is debatable.

Regardless of what modern editions of the Bible says, the idea that Judaism was ever widely spread around the Levant is ridiculous.

There is no evidence of Jevvish communities existing outside even the modern day internationally recognized boundaries of Izzrael. Or rather, no evidence prior to the time when the Achaemenid (and later Sassanid Empire) united all the major civilizations of their day under a single united Empire where the Jews were allowed freedom of movement and worship, and security from their neighboring enemies.

In fact, there are more sites relevant to Jewish history in Iran / the traditional territories of Persia proper than all of the rest of the near east of this planet

These beliefs of Greater Israel are just an excuse for the Jevvs to convince themselves that the injustices and destruction they inflict upon others have always and will always be acceptable to them by means of Zionism being the core of their faith, and therefore unquestionable.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 05:41:03 AM by Apollyon »

Offline nomad

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Shamgen: The ‘Muslim Union’
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2011, 06:15:18 AM »
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Apollyon

In response to your comment about  shamgen . I like to add a couple of things , as it is relevant to question of racial problems in mixed communities also .

(1) The shamgen laws can use EU laws and constitution as a starting point , this will save a lot of legal research . They can then discard some laws such as " subsidy for pig farmers !" etc and add more to be compatible with islamic law .

(2) Some problems of EU applicant nations on joining ( labour laws or human rights laws ) or inability to invest in common funds or other social differences , can be overcome by allowing shamgen memebers to have a tier entry system . There could for an example be three or four tier membership . This will overcome problems of say Turkey , when it wanted to join EU , for similar country in ME wanting to join . ( the objection of France to Turkey EU membership was based on Race and religion).
This idea is a little bit like buying a cinema ticket for the type of film you want to watch , or paying more to get a front row seat .

(3) Two of the most important aspects of a common market , involve movement of capital and labour . I heard that Iran and Turkey are building an Industrial city together . No doubt they will employ joint capital and labour for this . Now this labour if not temporary or seasonal will be based in this city long term and will also be ethnically diverse . This is a potential problem area and it can be overcome by the participating investors making sure ( signing an agreement) that this city will be sustained by full or near full employment for as long as it takes for at least 50% of the population to inter-marry .In this way the participants can ensure that if industrial output fell and unemployment rose , that this city will not become a hot bed of ethnic trouble !

 :think:
Error is inconsistent with my prime function .

Offline Apollyon

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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2011, 04:13:09 PM »
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Apollyon

...

(3) Two of the most important aspects of a common market , involve movement of capital and labour . I heard that Iran and Turkey are building an Industrial city together . No doubt they will employ joint capital and labour for this . Now this labour if not temporary or seasonal will be based in this city long term and will also be ethnically diverse . This is a potential problem area and it can be overcome by the participating investors making sure ( signing an agreement) that this city will be sustained by full or near full employment for as long as it takes for at least 50% of the population to inter-marry .In this way the participants can ensure that if industrial output fell and unemployment rose , that this city will not become a hot bed of ethnic trouble !


I agree there is some instinctive tribal mindset in humans that has them tend to stick among their own ethnic sort in times of trouble, and this behavior should not be underestimated in destroying prospects for cooperation in times of difficulty. But how best do you "encourage" intermarriage?

Also, if the expectation is the eventual homogenization of near eastern peoples then that presents another problem. Certain desirable recessive phenotypes exist in differing frequencies across middle eastern ethnic groups. With ethnic homogenization across the middle east, what will result is a population in which the incidence of recessive phenotypes is completely diminished regardless of their favorability.
This should necessitate a mechanism for encouraging significantly higher rates of reproduction among more economically successful and intelligent individuals who likely have more favorable hereditary traits.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 04:16:24 PM by Apollyon »

rouz

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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2011, 04:48:20 PM »
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This should necessitate a mechanism for encouraging significantly higher rates of reproduction among more economically successful and intelligent individuals who likely have more favorable hereditary traits.


Really?

Are you saying that people who are born into poverty are less intelligent than those born into wealthy families? What is intelligence and who should set the criteria, and how much of it is due to ones surroundings rather than genes?


Offline HajMamood

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Shamgen: The ‘Muslim Union’
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2011, 05:17:33 PM »
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Fantastic News. Its great to see that there is more co-operation between muslim countries in the middle-east.
HajMamood

Offline Apollyon

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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2011, 06:02:23 PM »
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Really?

Are you saying that people who are born into poverty are less intelligent than those born into wealthy families? What is intelligence and who should set the criteria, and how much of it is due to ones surroundings rather than genes?

You are correct barberry, that there are certainly important exceptions to this. Economic success is not the best indicator of the presence of innate, and ultimately hereditary, traits (phenotypes) relating to intelligence or skill. Many other variables must be taken into consideration.

I also agree that in the past methods of attempting to encourage larger families among more successful individuals have led to such abuses of humanitarianism as forced sterilization and disenfranchising large segments of the population wrongly deemed inferior as people. Indeed, such unjustifiable actions and rhetoric are morally repulsive and disenfranchising to many citizens, and may produce a great deal of social turmoil within a civilization. But there are humanitarian ways to go about this.

While there is no race on earth with a monopoly on all traits (there are individuals from every race with every level of intellect and social skill and physical and mental endurance abilities), one cannot deny that the frequencies of different phenotypes differ from one ethnic group to another.

I know that a nations that can find a mechanism to improve the incidence of traits that predispose its members to improved intellect and physical / mental health will prosper greatly. At its fundamental core, there is nothing more to nations than their people. How they use their resources, how they are united with one another, the innovations produced, these are all a function of the people.

And economic success is, perhaps not the best, but the most unbiased metric for overall competence of one's genome in making for a successful member of society. The alternative is to micromanage traits or administer genetic testing,, all of which would make for extremely cumbersome systems of managing population dynamics (and would you really want a bureaucrat deciding which traits are ideal?).

Certainly, innovating the civilization to allow for greater social mobility, such that all people have the opportunity to pursue economic success, is another important part of the solution.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 06:08:05 PM by Apollyon »

rouz

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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2011, 06:57:18 PM »
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While there is no race on earth with a monopoly on all traits (there are individuals from every race with every level of intellect and social skill and physical and mental endurance abilities), one cannot deny that the frequencies of different phenotypes differ from one ethnic group to another.

You never state what you base your arguments on. Is the above quote, and the undeniable conclusion it contains, derived from empirical facts, historical or anecdotal evidence? Either way, the very fundamentals of statistics teach us that correlation does not imply causation which, in this case, means that one simply cannot judge human beings based on their ethnicity alone. Is Iran's poor economy due to it being inhabited by brown and hairy people as opposed to the white and smooth-skinned, and much more prosperous, Anglo-Saxons, or is it due to historical reasons?

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And economic success is, perhaps not the best, but the most unbiased metric for overall competence of one's genome in making for a successful member of society.

I would argue the exact opposite. Economic success is the most biased and flawed method of judging human capability as most people are born into material and social wealth. An example of wealthy and incompetent group of people would be the monarchs of the world while examples of the often struggling and talented would be its writers, painters and academics. 

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The alternative is to micromanage traits or administer genetic testing,, all of which would make for extremely cumbersome systems of managing population dynamics (and would you really want a bureaucrat deciding which traits are ideal?).

The alternative would be to provide all people an equal opportunity to evolve and contribute to society to the best of their capabilities. This has proven to be a working formula as the most innovative people of the developed world have come from simple backgrounds and who managed to advance thanks to an equal chance of education.



« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 06:59:42 PM by Barberry »

Offline nomad

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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2011, 08:18:45 PM »
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@apollyon

I am not geneticist . And genotype and fenotype set aside , workers can be obliged legally to marry if they want employment , as a condition of their contract .( And marriage to a local person of different ethnic background) . The language spoken at home is upto them , but legal language of children will depend on the territory of this city being in Turkey or Iran . This city needs to be operational for at least 20 years or one generation . After this time , if factories not competetive , then subsidy can slowly be removed . The workers in this case become uniform and almost imposssible to start race problems . I suggessted similar city for Afghanistan ( with help of other investors than Iran , like Germany ) in border of tribal areas to allow for ethnic uniformity also .

The factory owners ( the rich as you call them ) , also share capital and resources from a wider area , they become more internationalised or nationalised in scope . This will help also in standardizing laws and technology and standards also .
This idea of marriage to allow for peace between tribes and nations is as old as time . Practiced by kings of many nations
through history . We can now make it more formal and with greater goals in mind .
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 08:25:39 PM by nomad »

rouz

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« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2011, 09:16:00 PM »
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Northern Khorasan, with Bojnourd as its administrative capital, is amongst the most prosperous regions of Iran and also among its ethnically most diverse. The two factors may not have anything to do with each other but the diversity has certainly not been a hinder. No one cares of ethnicity and there is a lot of intermarriage.

From Wikipedia, regarding Bojnourd...
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Next to speaking Persian (city's indiginious language) the city is mostly famous for multilingualty. Many people speak at least 4 different languages including Persian, Tati dialect of Persian, Khorasani Turkic, Kurmanci Kurdish and Turkmen.

Offline Apollyon

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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2011, 12:47:07 AM »
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You never state what you base your arguments on. Is the above quote, and the undeniable conclusion it contains, derived from empirical facts, historical or anecdotal evidence? Either way, the very fundamentals of statistics teach us that correlation does not imply causation which, in this case, means that one simply cannot judge human beings based on their ethnicity alone. Is Iran's poor economy due to it being inhabited by brown and hairy people as opposed to the white and smooth-skinned, and much more prosperous, Anglo-Saxons, or is it due to historical reasons?

Barberry, I could probably find some statistic or another to show, but simply consider the evidence of reason.
Farmers and unskilled laborers tend to have more children than higher income individuals.
This is true even between nations, with first world nations having the lowest birth rates out of all nations that do not regulate such a thing.
I am Iranian, and I love my fellow Iranian, and I don't appreciate the condescending comparison made between Iranians and Europeans. Everyone is an individual, we need not be racist.
We can have a society of farmers and day laborers or we can have a society of mechanics, scientists, engineers, etc.

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I would argue the exact opposite. Economic success is the most biased and flawed method of judging human capability as most people are born into material and social wealth. An example of wealthy and incompetent group of people would be the monarchs of the world while examples of the often struggling and talented would be its writers, painters and academics. 

If they are born into wealth, then they are likely also born into the genes for higher-skill and intellect jobs to accumulate more wealth. If there are differences in innate abilities between humans, they will one way or another manifest in socioeconomic stratification. Yes, there are other variables involved in one's abilities.
But it's not an either/or situation. If Iran can maximize the possibility for social mobility of the lower classes, then what will inevitably ultimately result is an economy in which those with the greatest innate marketable skill tend to find their way to the top. Modern nations don't need as many farmers as they do bankers, scientists, mechanists, skilled laborers.
Economics isn't a zero sum game, where if one person is rich it means another must become poor. Otherwise today the average quality of life would be the same as it was when humans first evolved from primates.

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The alternative would be to provide all people an equal opportunity to evolve and contribute to society to the best of their capabilities. This has proven to be a working formula as the most innovative people of the developed world have come from simple backgrounds and who managed to advance thanks to an equal chance of education.

I'm not some kind of evil NAZI doctor thinking of methods to torture certain ethnic groups. I don't think anything needs to change except that the people who have better marketable skills should have more children than those who don't, and the government should be responsible for supporting such a program because it is in the interest of everyone.
This makes sense even if genetics doesn't enter into the argument. People shouldn't have more children then they can afford to give a good education and proper attention. maybe millenia ago farmers needed to have more children than skilled craftsmen because someone needed to work the fields. Modern technology has circumvented this need.

There is no reason to believe everyone is born with the exact same potential. I am the greatest proponent of biodiversity among humans. I wouldn't trust Stephen hawking to be the greatest athlete, but I would refer to him when I have questions on astro physics and quantum mechanics.
Why deny civilization to be able to take advantage of engineering population dynamics?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 12:56:57 AM by Apollyon »

rouz

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« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2011, 07:49:16 AM »
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Barberry, I could probably find some statistic or another to show, but simply consider the evidence of reason.

And I presented to you the most fundamental principle of statistics that correlation does not imply causation. Reason means very little as it is a subjective thing. There is a reason behind all human action, even though they vary greatly. 


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Farmers and unskilled laborers tend to have more children than higher income individuals.
This is true even between nations, with first world nations having the lowest birth rates out of all nations that do not regulate such a thing.

Again, this may be true, but correlation does not imply causation. Farmers have more children for practical reasons (help with labour) and not due to any inherit trait. The amount of children decreases however as the nation advances and farming becomes more mechanized. One historical factor that you also are neglecting is that all Iranian's (in fact all people around the world) be they doctors, engineers, blue eyed film stars etc, come from families who were farmers just a few generations back.

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I am Iranian, and I love my fellow Iranian, and I don't appreciate the condescending comparison made between Iranians and Europeans. Everyone is an individual, we need not be racist.

You are the one bringing up ethnicity and inherent traits. By your logic the birth of Iranians should be limited as their genes correlate to their lack of success. Brown and hairy Iranians < White and Smooth Anglo-Saxons. Simple reasoning, right?

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We can have a society of farmers and day laborers or we can have a society of mechanics, scientists, engineers, etc.

Indeed, and as  farming becomes more mechanized more people will move to the industry. This is how things have been in the developed world, and how things are turning out in Iran.

Offline Apollyon

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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2011, 02:55:55 AM »
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Again, this may be true, but correlation does not imply causation. Farmers have more children for practical reasons (help with labour) and not due to any inherit trait. The amount of children decreases however as the nation advances and farming becomes more mechanized. One historical factor that you also are neglecting is that all Iranian's (in fact all people around the world) be they doctors, engineers, blue eyed film stars etc, come from families who were farmers just a few generations back.

Barberry, all our ancestors were farmers or unskilled laborers at some point in time. This is simply a result of the fact that the industrial revolution is a relatively recent thing. There wasn't always as large a market for scientists and engineers as there is today. It's natural that as an economy modernizes, many people will move to these new positions. But does everyone have the innate capacity to reach the same potential in all fields?

It's ok, it really is, because we can improve the chances that a higher ration of those individuals our nation needs out breed others. We can fix our economy real nice, our nation's intellectual climate can skyrocket. Don't these wonderful prospects excite you?

Not everyone is born with the intelligence or the physical endurance to make them ideal for every position.
Everyone has something to contribute that is uniquely their own, because everyone is an individual.
I don't want to tell people what they are good at. Nobody knows better than you what you want to do with your life. But I know intelligence, as well as many other traits, are significantly hereditary, there have been many studies on this matter.

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You are the one bringing up ethnicity and inherent traits. By your logic the birth of Iranians should be limited as their genes correlate to their lack of success. Brown and hairy Iranians < White and Smooth Anglo-Saxons. Simple reasoning, right?

Our genes are transcribed into the proteins that make every organ and tissue and bone structure within our body. This includes our brain. You know what? if we were to ensure that only white skinned, blue eyed, hairless Iranians had the most children, after a few generations, there would indeed be many more hairless, blue eyed, pale Iranians than there are today. And if we ensured only the Iranians that do hard labor, with the most muscle mass today, had the most children, we'd probably notice Iranians in general have more muscle mass in a few generations. Because there will of course be a tendency that only physically stronger individuals will be employable in such positions. Ethiopians are famously fast runners. If you notice their legs tend to be spaced further apart than in other individuals. There are exceptions, but the physiological differences that tend to make them superb marathon runners are undeniable.

Why bother arguing genetics don't affect who we are? That our genes are carbon copies from one individual to the next? Why deny humanity's rich biodiversity when it is so obvious we are all physiologically different, and our brains our different, and our hearts and lungs are different?

You know, I wouldn't want Iranians to look like Europeans, because our skin tone is ideal for our climate and our physique has formed through natural selection over countless generations since our ancestors arrived in Iran to best compete for the resources in our particular niche. However, natural selection does not occur any longer. Western medical science has done away with it. No matter how impossible it would have been for a disabled individual like myself to survive even a few centuries ago, I can easily do it, with modern science. Industrialized nations have no mechanism for natural selection to take place in order to propagate genes that provide a tendency for more marketable skills, intellect, physique, any adaptation. This is why I do believe the most intelligent Iranians, those with the most marketable skills, should have the most children. Over the course of a few generations, Iranians will tend to be more intelligent on average and will tend to posses more marketable skills.

It's ok if we are all not there just yet, it really is, because we can improve the chances that a higher ration of those individuals our nation needs out breed others. We can fix our economy real nice, our nation's intellectual climate can skyrocket. Don't these wonderful prospects excite you? We can make it better, so that we can out compete all the competition, and help save Iran.

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Indeed, and as  farming becomes more mechanized more people will move to the industry. This is how things have been in the developed world, and how things are turning out in Iran.

Every population, every nation, has been subject to its own selection factors. Those that have experienced long periods of war, plague, famine, strife in general, (including Iran) will have a population where the people that have survived tend to be constituted differently culturally, and in the frequencies of different genetic traits that were selected for in those times of great environmental pressure to compete for resources.

I don't think reproduction is a civil right anyhow. I have seen too many families with too many children to support. Many people don't think before they have children how they will send them all to school and support them. Iran in the past made the right choice by providing incentive for couples to have no more than two children per family. This helped Iran, the ration of children to poorer, unskilled laborers to those with more marketable skills was decreased as a result.
We shouldn't tell people what they want to do with their life, that is their right. But, don't you think the government can incentivise certain people to have more children, and others fewer children, so that our nation can enjoy a biocracy and all individuals can benefit from an improved intellectual climate?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 03:12:18 AM by Apollyon »

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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2011, 11:34:40 AM »
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Please keep it short and factual. You are repeating yourself in many areas and include matters that go beyond our discussion...


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Barberry, all our ancestors were farmers or unskilled laborers at some point in time. This is simply a result of the fact that the industrial revolution is a relatively recent thing. There wasn't always as large a market for scientists and engineers as there is today. It's natural that as an economy modernizes, many people will move to these new positions. But does everyone have the innate capacity to reach the same potential in all fields?

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Not everyone is born with the intelligence or the physical endurance to make them ideal for every position.
Everyone has something to contribute that is uniquely their own, because everyone is an individual.
I don't want to tell people what they are good at. Nobody knows better than you what you want to do with your life. But I know intelligence, as well as many other traits, are significantly hereditary, there have been many studies on this matter.

First of all, thank you for stating the obvious and explaining the industrial revolution to me (an economist). My point, which clearly went above you, was that if the sons and daughters of illiterate farmers can grow up to become doctors and engineers, then it is impossible to tell who has, and who has not, inherit traits to become successful. Given the right material and social wealth, anyone has the capacity to achieve great results.

Let me give you an anecdotal evidence of this to further clarify. My grandfather is an illiterate villager, he has never held a book in his hand except the Quran (which he can't even read) and he had 8 children, one of them my dad. My dad moved to Tehran, joined the Air Force where he attained the competence to overhaul jet engines. My dad had two children, one of them me, and I just finished writing a report for an organization with a annual budget of 3 billion Euro. So in three generations it is possible to go from the walking stick of a shepherd, to jet engines to economics. My cousins who share the same genes as me but who have had other environmental realities (material and social wealth) have achieved other results. Some of them are studying while others are simple workers. In short: it is the environment, the social and material wealth that one is given, that determines ones development. Also, my grandfathers 8 children, have either 1 or 2 children themselves, something that shows you how a little schooling determines the reproduction rate. Neither the reproduction rate is determined by ones genes alone.

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It's ok, it really is, because we can improve the chances that a higher ration of those individuals our nation needs out breed others. We can fix our economy real nice, our nation's intellectual climate can skyrocket. Don't these wonderful prospects excite you?

Iran has a surplus of academics, doctors and engineers but it lacks skilled labour. For Iran to prosper it needs skilled electricians, construction workers, technicians, competent farmers and such. This is the case not only for Iran, but for most developing nations. Iran is at the fore front of biology and nano-technology but, from personal experience, I can tell you that it is nearly impossible to get a good plumber or electrician when you are renovating your home.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 11:53:23 AM by Barberry »

Offline Apollyon

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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2011, 05:01:25 PM »
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My point, which clearly went above you, was that if the sons and daughters of illiterate farmers can grow up to become doctors and engineers, then it is impossible to tell who has, and who has not, inherit traits to become successful. Given the right material and social wealth, anyone has the capacity to achieve great results.

This is the exact point where our disagreement lies.
I agree with some of what you say, and yes, there were many very intelligent individuals today and in the past who farmed and did basic labor because those used to be the only positions available to most people in an un-industrialized economy.
And as better positions opened up, many doing unskilled labor moved into those positions when the opportunities arose.
But that still isn't evidence that everyone had the potential to be the best scientist or engineer or doctor or even the best plumber. Only that those with such potential existed, and enough of them had the opportunity to staff new industries.

In a bit of my own personal anecdotal evidence, I have known many children who have attended private academies, living with wealthy families, who I would not describe as intellectual or capable of meaningful critical thinking. Most people are born with the intellectual potential to function in society. But this does not carry over to all fields. At some point, some people, no matter how much more they study on a subject such as mathematics, will simply cease to understand a sufficiently abstract concept, or have much greater difficulty in doing so, whereas others will have little problem.

You talk about illiteracy, but let's separate intelligence from education. Your IQ isn't a function of how much formal schooling you have had. It's clear that how we define intelligence may differ, so let me introduce the more specific concept of IQ instead.

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Iran has a surplus of academics, doctors and engineers but it lacks skilled labour. For Iran to prosper it needs skilled electricians, construction workers, technicians, competent farmers and such. This is the case not only for Iran, but for most developing nations. Iran is at the fore front of biology and nano-technology but, from personal experience, I can tell you that it is nearly impossible to get a good plumber or electrician when you are renovating your home.

Individuals who can become doctors, scientists, engineers are probably intellectually equipped with the ability to become farmers and electricians. There is nothing the matter with improving IQ score of a community. It's not as though individuals with an IQ of 120 can only function in tasks sufficiently intellectually complicated and nothing below. Furthermore, I am not claiming this to be a cure-all, but when compunded with intelligent economic policy to treat workforce deficits as you describe, there is a potential for this to be a boon beyond all boons for Iranian civilization. In the future, other nations will see the benefits of such policies and will adopt them. I want Iran to lead.

Even agrarian east asian societies have higher IQs than westerners. We can set the stage for Iran to be an economy better than even Japan's electronics based economy. And an improved Iranian way of life with an improved intellectual climate. All Iranians, from the farmers, to the disabled, to the engineers can benefit by sane reproductive policies that financially incentivise those who make more money to have more children.

Brother, I want for you, and IMF in general, to be able to come to an agreement with me on these matters. It will be of little difference unless we convince Iranians of the potential of combining science with public policy in such a way.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 05:38:04 PM by Apollyon »

rouz

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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2011, 05:53:20 PM »
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This is the exact point where our disagreement lies.
I agree with some of what you say, and yes, there were many very intelligent individuals today and in the past who farmed and did basic labor because those used to be the only positions available to most people in an un-industrialized economy.
And as better positions opened up, many doing unskilled labor moved into those positions when the opportunities arose.
But that still isn't evidence that everyone had the potential to be the best scientist or engineer or doctor or even the best plumber. Only that those with such potential existed, and enough of them had the opportunity to staff new industries.

There is plenty of evidence that it is the environment of children that determine their development. Given the social and material opportunities (such as safe childhood, good schooling, etc.) most children can grow up to become doctors and engineers (the Iranian obsession with these two occupation is unsound though). Achieving something thoroughly revolutionary in any scientific field, however, requires genius as well as a great deal of luck/chance. Most of the scientific milestones our species has achieved so far have been by accident.

My fundamental claim here is, simply put, that Iran needs to provide all of its people with an equal opportunity to advance in life. Our culture and faith are based on the core principles of equality regardless of race or culture. The notion that a group of people is inherently better than another is a racist one and, as such, not compatible with our national identity.

Our nation is a diverse one as draws its strength from tolerance and understanding amongst its inhabitants. The claims you and Nomad make are incredibly dangerous in such an environment as they will lead to tribalism and ethnic unrest. The statements of Nomad are similar to the colonial doctrine of divide and conquer and would undoubtedly lead to an balkanisation of Iran were they to gain foothold. Study the Balkan Wars and learn how thoughts of racial and cultural superiority will very quickly result in former friends turning into viscous enemies.

 
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In a bit of my own personal anecdotal evidence, I have known many children who have attended private academies, living with wealthy families, who I would not describe as intellectual or capable of meaningful critical thinking. Most people are born with the intellectual potential to function in society. But this does not carry over to all fields. At some point, some people, no matter how much more they study on a subject such as mathematics, will simply cease to understand a sufficiently abstract concept, or have much greater difficulty in doing so, whereas others will have little problem.

Everyone are luckily not good at everything. I was myself at best average at maths (despite a lot of effort) but quite strong in other fields. I had friends who were not good at school but who were geniuses when it came to sports and arts. I really do not see where you are going with this argument...


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You talk about illiteracy, but let's separate intelligence from education. Your IQ isn't a function of how much formal schooling you have had.


First of all, IQ does rise with the development of nations. Secondly IQ is an extremely limited method of measuring human capability and describes only a fraction of our intellect. Like most people who work or know engineers can tell you, having a high IQ does not mean you are a smart person overall. I have lived with people who have studied at Chalmers University of Technology (among the better universities  in Europe) and one of them was even a member of MENSA (the high-IQ society) and can assure you that their overall intellect was quite limited. They were extremely good as solving puzzles and programming but they could hardly write a simple essay, had no knowledge of society or anything else for that matter. These people would be nothing without managers.

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Individuals who can become doctors, scientists, engineers are probably intellectually equipped with the ability to become farmers and electricians.

This is absolutely flawed. There are different types of intellects. Most academics are theoreticians and lack all talent when it comes to practical matters.


« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 06:05:47 PM by Barberry »

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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2011, 06:57:37 PM »
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This is scary stuff to read here.A fully baked Nazi cake with a dose of fascism sprinkled on top.
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Offline Apollyon

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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2011, 09:43:37 PM »
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This is absolutely flawed. There are different types of intellects. Most academics are theoreticians and lack all talent when it comes to practical matters.

Barberry, in your attempt to disprove what I post you have hit on a point of genius. Just as different physiques don't dispose one to be best at different sports (and in my case, no sports), our brain, being so complex, provides for different types of intellect. A society reaching its potential in terms of innovation and productivity might need one type of intellect more than another. And that can change as civilization evolves. And that is exactly why the market should decide what sort of intelligence occurs with the greatest frequency within a nation, depending on what our nation will need most. When farming is the profession in the greatest demand, and farming provides the highest pay, the farmers should have more children to help meet this demand. And when engineering is the profession in which there is greatest demand, and the market determines the engineering will have the highest pay, then the engineers should have more children. And in that manner in the matter of a generation Iran can have a slightly higher incidence of children with the traits needed to reach our nation's full economic potential.
Within a century, Iranian people will have a significantly higher incidence of the most marketable traits.

It is one way to help improve Iran greatly.

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This is scary stuff to read here.A fully baked Nazi cake with a dose of fascism sprinkled on top.

Don't read into this more than there is, there is no fascism here, just sane reproductive policy meant to improve the lives of all our brothers in the future.

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Our nation is a diverse one as draws its strength from tolerance and understanding amongst its inhabitants. The claims you and Nomad make are incredibly dangerous in such an environment as they will lead to tribalism and ethnic unrest.

This isn't racist in any manner, there isn't any pretense of racism in linking the number of children you have to how much your income will support, it is a noble, humanitarian mission.
China has a one child policy, yet they make exceptions for small minorities. This seems a rational approach.

Imagine Iran embracing such obvious yet revolutionary solutions. The World will look unto us as a model of integrating science and society. Why chain your people to old reproductive policy taboos that will forever limit our potential in one way or another.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 09:46:57 PM by Apollyon »

Offline sarmad17

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« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2011, 12:54:38 AM »
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Allamah Tabatabai was a farmer.
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Offline Apollyon

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« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2011, 12:58:52 AM »
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Allamah Tabatabai was a farmer.

So was my great grandfather, he was a man I greatly respected as well.
We need to get out of this mindset of "superior" and "inferior" people, which is what this is being misconstrued as (perhaps it's my fault for not explaining it properly) and into a train of thought of what the population needs most and what the population can do without at any given point in the development of the economy of our civilization. To this effect, I am arguing people who make more money should be incentivized to have more children than others, if there are innate traits that give them marketable skills then there will be more Iranians with these traits in future generations. At worst it will support preventing families from having more children than they can support with their income.

It's hardly even a question of whether genetics influence shows a tendency to manifest in our education and choice of career, just how much in any given civilization and in each socioeconomic bracket.

And Tabatabai, while he was a farmer (like most of our families at the time), and by no means rich, was likely not at the lower end of the income spectrum in the Iranian nation at the time. He was fairly well educated, and an intellectual, and published a good number of works.



« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 01:25:02 AM by Apollyon »

Offline Moon

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« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2011, 04:48:28 AM »
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Nazism is a very close relative of fascism.Nazism is a forerunner to fascism.You can't idolise Nazism without expecting the resultant fascism,these two feed off eachother.The fact that you can't see that or don't know it,it doesn't mean its not there.

Offline Apollyon

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« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2011, 04:54:02 AM »
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Nazism is a very close relative of fascism.Nazism is a forerunner to fascism.You can't idolise Nazism without expecting the resultant fascism.The fact that you can't see that or don't know it,it doesn't mean its not there.

I understand your concerns, Moon, but they are unfounded in reality.
We hate NAZIs because they committed genocide.
Where do you see me advocating genocide.
How does China's one child policy, with exceptions made for minorities, equal NAZIsm, more than intelligent reproductive policy rather than reproductive anarchy.

In terms of fascism, I think nationalism among Iranians is necessary at this point in time that we have outside forces that literally hate us and want to see us "glassed". And our government is frequently slandered as fascist by the West which does not understand how it administers. It may not be a perfect government but it's protected what is important to the Iranian people. Our religion, our cultural identity, our security, our drive for progress in science and technology and society in general. Fascism as you think of it is just a word, what matters is the effect it has on the people of a nation, how it protects the rights and greater good of the nation's minorities as well as the mainstream masses.

Scary words and references to past atrocities are not relevant here.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 05:01:49 AM by Apollyon »

 

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