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Master Sergeant (گروهبان)
I think this will be a manned aircraft. Iran does not have the necessary GPS sats in GEO orbit and at this rate probably won't have enough till 2025. I think a UCAV like this would need GPS and sat communications.

So I think the aircraft might be manned especially now that Iran announced that their version of RQ-170 is going to be a bomber. It might mean Iran decided against this project in favor of the RQ-170 version. So either this project is shelved, going to be converted to a man fighter, or delayed.

Because after 4 years Iran hasn't said a word about it.

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ir
1st lieutenant (ستوان یكم)
I prefer a flying wing design ...

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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
Enlarged photo of the delta wing version.
"Now Rustem, when he felt the water beneath him, forthwith drew out his sword and combated the crocodiles with his right hand, and with his left he swam towards the shore. And long did he struggle and sore, but when the night was fallen he put his foot upon the dry land."
Ferdowsi

Metaphor for Iran

دانش گر در ثريا هم باشد, مردانی از سرزمین پارس به  ان دست خواهند یافت - حضرت محمد

All wars are lose-lose situations.

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Corporal (سرجوخه)
It is a part of music video clip, produced by IRIAF :

http://www.aparat.com/v/LhsJ1

is it a recent music video? wondering if this program is still active.

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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
M-ATF, where is that from? Is it recent or old?


It is a part of music video clip, produced by IRIAF :

http://www.aparat.com/v/LhsJ1

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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
I can't believe it's been 4 years since this thread was made. How time flies!
We've not heard anything from sofreh mahi for a while. Be nice to hear something.

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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
M-ATF, where is that from? Is it recent or old?

Anyway, the rc UAV flying above is a model of this one:




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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
Short clip of test flight of RC model of Sofreh-Mahi:

Test flight of Sofreh Mahi model

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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
Shirazi,

First the Have Blue was a bit smaller than the Final F-117 (was only a quarter the size by weight)..Also it was designed and produced by Lockheed not Northrop...Also the F-117 uses 2 F404 engines (same as F-18) with afterburners removed and buried in the body of the plane to decrease its infared signature. So preferably if Iran was to use J85s as the powerplant for a future UAV/UCAV they would likely need to have their afterburners removed and as such they would be much less powerful (3000lb + thrust each) and while adding stages to the engine core would likely improve the thrust it would likely not add enough thrust to greatly increase performance.

For perspective on UCAV payloads think of the X-47B UCAV soon to best carrier tested in the US..Its powered by a non-afterburning F100 turbofan engine but yet it would likely only have a 2000kg+ payload (though the final version will likely carry more, closer to 4500kg) so I would estimate a UCAV powered even by 2 afterburning J85s (5000lbs each) would likely only carry a payload of 1000-2000kg. Just my guess on that last part..
"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell."
- Harry Truman

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Major (سرگرد)
Im saying Iran's most advanced indigenous fighter is a F-5 copy, how are they going to make a 5th gen stealth fighter? They don't even have the technology.

I think you're missing a critical point.  Not to take away from Iran indigineous capabilities, it is easier to build a stealth UCAV/UAV than it is to build a X gen fighter.  That's why I'm saying you're mixing apples and oranges and your question is not a valid one.

Mamdali
(Note:  I hope I'm being redundant by saying that given the state of misinformation and factless and unsupported content that is rife on the 'internet' today, naturally, I cannot endorse, believe, support, or accept any of links posted by me or others.  I personally find them interesting, however, as they open new perspectives for me.  I leave it to the reader to glean what they can or want from them).

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General (ارتشبد)
Quote
Im saying Iran's most advanced indigenous fighter is a F-5 copy

Not true at all!


catsoo

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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
I just came across the have blue project that was a prototype for the F117. It uses two J85 planes (which are also used in F-5s) and it reminded me of the Sofreh Mahi and i thought of some questions;

How much of an improvement can be made to the J85-GE-21 (with a thrust of 5,000lbfs) which power Iran's F-5E and what is the upper limit to the thrust it can achieve by adding more stages?

Why did Northrop Grumman go with the Pratt & Whitney JT15D, which is newer than the J85 but weighs more and has less thrust, what's it's advantage over the J85?

How much does a cockpit weigh, i.e. how much weight could you save by removing a cockpit and making a plane unmanned.

What would be a realistic payload for a stealth UCAV, which has two internal bays, that is powered by 2 J85s (possibly with the 5,000 LGF thrust)? I assume it would be possible for at least 2 2,000LB PGMs, just like the F-117, but is there anyway this can be increased?

How advanced does to radar need to be if it only aims to drop PGMs?

Finally, is it possible to jam the radio link between a UCAV and the central command and what is the best way to communicate with a UCAV, a satellite or a radio link? If with a satellite, how advanced does the satellite have to be?
Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 05:11:53 PM by Shirazi

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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
Im saying Iran's most advanced indigenous fighter is a F-5 copy, how are they going to make a 5th gen stealth fighter? They don't even have the technology.
we said a lot that do not mix up 5th generation fighter with stealth one.

stealth fighter can be even 3rd or 4th generation.

also there is no prof that stealth fighter "Sofra Mahi" is a 5th generation.
  

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au
Private 1st Class (سرباز یكم)
It's still not clear what you are asking.  X-gen fighters or stealth UAV/UCAV?  It seems you are mixing apples and oranges.  Please clarify.

Mamdali
Im saying Iran's most advanced indigenous fighter is a F-5 copy, how are they going to make a 5th gen stealth fighter? They don't even have the technology.
And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. Quran (3:103)

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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
Agreed this is a discussion for another thread...

But jumping aircraft generations is fairly unusual, its more often that a country's first combat aircraft is a modern design relative to that time period. India is one of the few examples of such a jump in indigenous combat aircraft design (the HF-24 Marut to the LCA, a 2nd generation to 4+ generation) and they were aided by the having license-built several 3rd generations inbetween which allowed them to gain experience in production.

But as I said before I doubt Iran even with plenty of funding is going to be flying a 5th generation fighter anytime soon simply because such things take decades to design and fly and Iran has huge obstacles to overcome before it can realize such a goal. But I also dont think any Iranian official is suggesting such either..

UCAVs are a different animal altogether..They havent been divided up into "generations" yet but we can logically infer our own. For example a 1st Gen. UCAV would be like Iran's modified Mohajers during the war (armed with RPGs) and armed versions of the US Firebee drone. 2nd generation UCAVs would be the Predator/Reaper drones and Israel's Heron. 3rd Generation UCAVs would include the designs currently underway such as the BAe Taranis, X-47, Neuron, MiG Skat. Related to these are proposed "6th generation" aircraft that are to be fully autonomous UCAVs like China's Dark Sword, Boeing F/A-XX which could come in unmanned and manned variants and would actually bridge the UCAV and Manned Fighter classifications.

Likely Iran's Sofreh Mahi (the Diamond shaped model) would likely lie somewhere between the "2nd" generation UCAV and the "3rd" generation depending on how autonomous the final version will be and whether Iran can increase the useful range (since current Iranian drones are limited in range because of lack of SATCOM and reliance on simple radio transmission/control). Just my thoughts..
"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell."
- Harry Truman

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S. Sergeant (گروهبان سو
While a seemingly good comparison its a bit relative...Iran's first satelite when compared to the other "Firsts" is third smallest which means it didnt require a larger SLV. For example, Israel and China's first satelite were much larger (over 200kg) and were much more sophisticated and long lasting satellites which in my book makes them a greater technological achievement than launching a very simple satellite. Not only that while America's first SLV has twice as many stages, the Explorer I (half the size of Omid) is still in orbit! So less stages isnt always best depending on what you are trying to achieve...As such for most things, achievement is relative.

I don't want to get into the details of the satellites as it was not my point (The advancement of a satellite is not related to advancement of a launch vehicle). Its weight is relevant not its advancement (if not unusually large!). Other than that, the Omid satellite was launched to a lower orbit than Explorer I, which is the reason for its fast decay. The Omid orbit was as they had released it before launch, that is relatively similar to ISS's orbit (it is at much lower orbit that Explorer I). Hence, the goal was achieved which is important. They could have done it with 3 or 4 stages but they did it with 2 stages, which shows they skipped some steps!

In general, getting to a certain orbit with lower number of stages is more difficult (Tsiolkovsky rocket equation). As you should know, at the time of Omid's launch everybody was assuming that Iran used a three-stage LV because they did not expect Iran to be able to do that with lower number of stages.

Personally, among all first LVs I like R-7 the most, here, I don't want to compare LVs togather to see which one is better. My point was that they may jump some steps as they did in the LV case.
اللَّهُمَّ اكْشِفْ هَذِهِ الْغُمَّةَ عَنِ الْأُمَّةِ بِحُضُورِهِ ، وَ عَجِّلْ لَنَا ظُهُورَهُ ، إِنَّهُمْ يَرَوْنَهُ بَعِيداً وَ نَراهُ قَرِيباً ، الْعَجَلَ يَا مَوْلَايَ يَا صَاحِبَ الزَّمَانِ

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Major (سرگرد)
I meant Iran's most advanced indigenous fighter is the sagaeh (f-5 copy), how are they going to jump from a 3rd gen fighter to a 5th gen.

It's still not clear what you are asking.  X-gen fighters or stealth UAV/UCAV?  It seems you are mixing apples and oranges.  Please clarify.

Mamdali
(Note:  I hope I'm being redundant by saying that given the state of misinformation and factless and unsupported content that is rife on the 'internet' today, naturally, I cannot endorse, believe, support, or accept any of links posted by me or others.  I personally find them interesting, however, as they open new perspectives for me.  I leave it to the reader to glean what they can or want from them).

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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
While a seemingly good comparison its a bit relative...Iran's first satelite when compared to the other "Firsts" is third smallest which means it didnt require a larger SLV. For example, Israel and China's first satelite were much larger (over 200kg) and were much more sophisticated and long lasting satellites which in my book makes them a greater technological achievement than launching a very simple satellite. Not only that while America's first SLV has twice as many stages, the Explorer I (half the size of Omid) is still in orbit! So less stages isnt always best depending on what you are trying to achieve...As such for most things, achievement is relative.
"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell."
- Harry Truman

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S. Sergeant (گروهبان سو
I meant Iran's most advanced indigenous fighter is the sagaeh (f-5 copy), how are they going to jump from a 3rd gen fighter to a 5th gen.

Like when they sent a satellite to orbit using only 2 stages rather than 3 or 4 stages which is the norm!
اللَّهُمَّ اكْشِفْ هَذِهِ الْغُمَّةَ عَنِ الْأُمَّةِ بِحُضُورِهِ ، وَ عَجِّلْ لَنَا ظُهُورَهُ ، إِنَّهُمْ يَرَوْنَهُ بَعِيداً وَ نَراهُ قَرِيباً ، الْعَجَلَ يَا مَوْلَايَ يَا صَاحِبَ الزَّمَانِ

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au
Private 1st Class (سرباز یكم)
So that we all understand, can you please clarify what you mean by "a country like Iran"?

Thanks!

I meant Iran's most advanced indigenous fighter is the sagaeh (f-5 copy), how are they going to jump from a 3rd gen fighter to a 5th gen.
And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. Quran (3:103)

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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
Here's how I see it..

The Diamond-shaped Sofreh Mahi is an actually flyable subscale model of a future Recon./Bomber UAV  Perhaps similar in concept to the Northrop Sentinel with some attack capability (depending on how large the final product will be)

The Fighter-like model is not likely a flying model (though it could be who knows just my thought) designed to testout the aerodynamics of this design and also give them an idea of what the final products RCS would be. Like such a fighter from appearance could very well be a 5th generation design, but is likely still many years from a first flight of a full scale aircraft.

The real question I have is which of these is a 1/7 scale model? Could they both be? If thats the case we could infer that both design would fairly descent sized aircraft...
"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell."
- Harry Truman

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ir
Major (سرگرد)
there is no way a country like iran who so have been able to only produce 3rd generation jets can make a stealth fighter

So that we all understand, can you please clarify what you mean by "a country like Iran"?

Thanks!
(Note:  I hope I'm being redundant by saying that given the state of misinformation and factless and unsupported content that is rife on the 'internet' today, naturally, I cannot endorse, believe, support, or accept any of links posted by me or others.  I personally find them interesting, however, as they open new perspectives for me.  I leave it to the reader to glean what they can or want from them).

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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
there is no way a country like iran who so have been able to only produce 3rd generation jets can make a stealth fighter

Do you even know what the generation classification means? Besides, do you think this so called 2 generation saeqeh Iran built was using all of the resources available to them?

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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
there is no way a country like iran who so have been able to only produce 3rd generation jets can make a stealth fighter
base on what consept you are saying so.

do you know that in Hitlar time German had a plane to build one, but the project got abandon?
at that time the 1st generation or maybe 1/2 generation was there only.

try not to confuse between being stealth fighter and 5th generation fighter.
  

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au
Private 1st Class (سرباز یكم)
there is no way a country like iran who so have been able to only produce 3rd generation jets can make a stealth fighter
And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. Quran (3:103)

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