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au
3rd lieutenant (ستوان سوم)
I really dont want to derail this thread to discuss Merkavas. But who is expecting Israel to tell him that Hezbollah has destroyed 50 Merkavas? All the published pictures of destroyed Merkavas were not taken from the main battle where Merkavas were destroyed. Images from this battle are still not published. Hezbollah says that they reveal secret information about firing positions and tactics. However here are some pictures available on youtube from others attacks... count the penetrations..


So how many Merkava Tanks were disabled and destroyed due to ATGM fire? Since I have heard different figures from different sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War
"According to Merkava tank program administration, 52 Merkava main battle tanks were damaged (45 of them by different kinds of ATGM), missiles penetrated 22 tanks, but only 5 tanks were destroyed, one of them by an improvised explosive device (IED)."

22 penetrations of Merkava by ATGMs is not bad.

In the next conflict Israel will be using Active Defence System on Merkava Tanks.
Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 08:32:56 AM by Numbers

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au
3rd lieutenant (ستوان سوم)
That's right, one shot one kill. Kornet can kill a modern MBT but a Precursor Missile can't, so I rather to sacrifice a small missile to open the way for the ATGM.

As you said it's easier and cheaper to carry a lighter smaller (around 4-5kg) Precursor Missile to defeat the Active Protection for the Kornet than depleting your ammo by using a Kornet to make way for another Kornet.

I completely agree with you. Precursor Missile is a must have technology for long range ATGM like Kornet.

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ALF = Alien Life Form
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hu
Private (سرباز عادى)
One must not forget that the range is quite large. It's an interesting tactical situation. The tanks may be separated from infantry units.

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Brother Skylark
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fi
Master Sergeant (گروهبان)
When you see a video where a tank is hit by a missile/rocket you really cannot know what happened.. Those videos also have a training accident and pictures from various conflicts. The smoke does not tell much alone either. When the tank is destroyed, it is destroyed (not repaired, crew killed/wounded). Putting them out of action is much easier. That is what you guys seem to miss: in the field it does not really matter whether it is out of use "for now" or destroyed but claiming that a tank that is later repaired and most of the crew returns to service were destroyed, is nonsense.
“I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I found Him not. I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was there. I entered the mountain cave of Hira and then went as far as Qandhar but God I found not. With set purpose I fared to the summit of Mount Caucasus and found there only 'anqa's habitation. Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; God was not there even. Turning to philosophy I inquired about him from ibn Sina but found Him not within his range. I fared then to the scene of the Prophet's experience of a great divine manifestation only a "two bow-lengths' distance from him" but God was not there even in that exalted court. Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was nowhere else.”
Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 10:39:13 AM by mustavaris

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Brother Skylark
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Master Sergeant (گروهبان)
What´s the use of precursor missile when in long range they won´t work (like in case of RPGs they might)... it´s simply better to employ two (or more) lethal missiles.

I completely agree with you. Precursor Missile is a must have technology for long range ATGM like Kornet.


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Brother Skylark
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fi
Master Sergeant (گروهبان)
Yes... not bad at all. But it seems that for some people only "destroying" means that the mission was accomplished. The fact being that killing and destroying... are overrated. And despite of what I say, I am not saying that Hezbollah did not prevail marvelously.

So how many Merkava Tanks were disabled and destroyed due to ATGM fire? Since I have heard different figures from different sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War
"According to Merkava tank program administration, 52 Merkava main battle tanks were damaged (45 of them by different kinds of ATGM), missiles penetrated 22 tanks, but only 5 tanks were destroyed, one of them by an improvised explosive device (IED)."

22 penetrations of Merkava by ATGMs is not bad.

In the next conflict Israel will be using Active Defence System on Merkava Tanks.


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Vahdat, Moghavemat, Ezzat
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ir
Colonel (سرهنگ)
Nope. Around that figure was hit and put out of action through the conflict (40 - 70 depending on the sources). They never lost dozens of Merkavas, dozens were put out of action for some time.. and that means anything between few hours of field work to factory overhaul before the tank was again ready for service. But of course you are free to count those as "lost"... whatever suits you:) This is also the general agreement among defence professionals and their journals.

But if buying into Hezbollah propaganda makes you feel better, go for it. It is only you to whom such might have negative consequences.





During live fire they will send their crew men to fix a tank? Please, then those crew men are perfect for target practice.

The second the tank is immobilized, it becomes more of a liability then anything useful. So when you hit a tank and it can't move, it doesn't matter anymore because its just sitting there and you can just continuously hit it until the soldiers inside panic or die.

So when they say 53 Markevas were lost, it means they were not longer of any use. To say they are sent back to the factory to be fixed is a joke, your going to tow it away and risk getting artillery shells pounding your position?

I don't get what you try to prove by saying they were fixed later, what matters is that on the field they were neutralized.

Its like saying the plane was not lost, it got shot down and the engine was sent back to the factory and used again. Please!

The whole point of using a ATGM is to neutralize the approaching tank. If 53 tanks were neutralized, it makes no difference if they were turned into vapor or you shot exactly where the fuse box is (figure of speach) and it no longer functions, but its in perfect condition. What matters is that they no longer could perform their mission.
Ya Ali, molla Ali (as)

"There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" - Imam Ali (as)

"''melate ma neshan dade'ast ke be hadaf haye khod momen, va dar rahe on, ta nesar'e jaan eestade'ast.. chenin melati, az america va az hiiich ghodrati nemitars'ad, va be yaari'e khoda neshan khahad daad ke pirooz az on' e hagh, va momenan be hagh ast!"

- Rahbar'e moazzam'e Enghlab'e Islami Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Khamenei

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Posts: 1930
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au
3rd lieutenant (ستوان سوم)
What´s the use of precursor missile when in long range they won´t work (like in case of RPGs they might)... it´s simply better to employ two (or more) lethal missiles.

Well, Precursor Missile can be a long range Missile. It is very light, guided and deployed on Launcher Tripod with main ATGM Missile. It triggers Active Defence System. After that main ATGM Missile hits enemy Tank.

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كونا للظالم خصماً وللمظلوم عوناً
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lb
1st lieutenant (ستوان یكم)
Is there any mention of the range of this missile?

Were there any pictures showing the back of the missile? Would be very interesting to see the optics placed there.

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lt
Private 1st Class (سرباز یكم)
Is there any mention of the range of this missile?

If it has Kornet-e specs, its 5500 m. at day, and 3500 m. at night.

I'm also very curious about Dehlavieh vs APS like Trophy and Quick kill (is the latter deployed yet?). Even if they would be successful against a single missile, as any anti-missile system it can be saturated by multiple missiles.

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Freeloader (اش خور)
Since this matter was brought up, and since this is not an American forum, perhaps it is worth it to respond to something that member "mustavaris" brought up>
In late 2006, the Israeli Army released "figures" of Merkava losses, and I am assuming that Mustavaris (and every amateur/professional I see online) have been relying on these figures (x tanks hit, y tanks penetrated, z tanks destroyed). Please, ignore all that: the only source we have on this matter is the Israeli Army, and if you choose to believe these figures, then you have zero critical faculty: A- Armies lie about these matters ALL THE TIME during ongoing conflicts, the reasons are too obvious to state, B- Israel in specific has historically  and consistently lied about casualties and especially equipment losses (since the early days of the conflict in the late 1940s).

Regarding "Hezbollah propaganda": I have personally read every statement that was issued officially by the party, throughout the conflict and afterward, and their reports have always been very level-headed and modest, even during the heat of the conflict. They almost never reported on events that never took place, and their casualty figures were always  closest to truth. It was Israel that reported on hundreds of Iranians fighting in south lebanon and thousands of captured lebanese fighters and a similar story almost every day of the 2006 war.

Lastly, the IDF gave naive westerners the impression that every tank destroyed in Lebanon was hit by a Kornet: if Mustavaris knew the amount of Kornet launchers available in South Lebanon on July 12,2006, he would not be making the assumptions that he made above.

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Posts: 366
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Private (E-2) (سرباز دوم)
Nope. Around that figure was hit and put out of action through the conflict (40 - 70 depending on the sources). They never lost dozens of Merkavas, dozens were put out of action for some time.. and that means anything between few hours of field work to factory overhaul before the tank was again ready for service. But of course you are free to count those as "lost"... whatever suits you:) This is also the general agreement among defence professionals and their journals.

But if buying into Hezbollah propaganda makes you feel better, go for it. It is only you to whom such might have negative consequences.





So Israel lost a few tanks and a few guys but was unable to penetrate more than 1.8 miles into Lebanon with 10's of 1000's of soldiers and was defeated...but did not really loose any armor or men they just decided to give up since they are nice people
If buying into western propaganda makes you happy so be it
Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 06:17:28 PM by wisdom

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ir
Freeloader (اش خور)
The company which manufactures the Kornet claims they haven't licensed Iran the technology to produce the Kornet:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-07-09/iran-producing-missiles-based-on-russia-s-kornet-analysts-say

Iran Producing Missiles Based on Russia’s Kornet, Analysts Say
Iran is producing new laser-guided anti-tank missiles modeled on Russia’s Kornet, the rocket used by Hezbollah in the 2006 war with Israel, according to defense analysts in London and Moscow.

The Iranians may have copied the design after obtaining it from non-state sources such as Hezbollah, said Igor Korotchenko, director of the Center for Analysis of World Arms Trade in Moscow, who’s also the head of an advisory council for the Russian Defense Ministry. Syria and the Hamas Islamic movement are also among possible sources for providing the technology, according to Neil Gibson, a defense analyst from IHS Jane’s.

Iranian Defense Minister Brigadier General Ahmad Vahidi on July 7 inaugurated production of the Dehlaviyeh anti-armor missile system designed to hit mobile and ground targets, the state-run Fars news agency reported. The Kornet has a range of as far as 5.5 kilometers (3.3 miles), according to its manufacturer, the KBP Instrument Design Bureau.

Hezbollah, a Shiite Muslim militant organization in Lebanon backed by Syria and Iran, in 2006 claimed to have destroyed two advanced Merkava-4 Israeli tanks with the Russian-made Kornet, which Israeli officials said was supplied by Syria. Russia hasn’t licensed Iran the technology to produce the Kornet, Korotchenko said.

Vyacheslav Davidenko, spokesman for state arms exporter Rosoboronexport, and Andrei Morozov, a senior manager in charge of media relations at KBP, couldn’t be reached for comment.
Syria, Hamas

“It’s most likely that a country in the area, previously supplied the Kornet by Russia, has supplied the missile to Iran,” IHS Jane’s Gibson said by e-mail. “This is most likely Syria, Hamas or Hezbollah, the latter supposedly supplied the Kornet by Syria.”

Syria had to commit not to re-export Kornet missiles at the time its purchases were made, according to Korotchenko. Iran could receive some technology and missiles through third parties such as Hezbollah as the Kornet was exported to dozens of countries, he said.

The Russian missile was also sold to Algeria, Greece, India, Jordan, Morocco and Turkey as well as reportedly to Azerbaijan, Libya, Peru and Uganda, Gibson said.

Once the missile had been supplied, Iranian engineers and scientists would have had to reverse-engineer all the missile systems, according to the IHS Jane’s analyst.

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ir
S. Sergeant (گروهبان سو
I hope this would be DIO's next coming project!

GRAN the 120mm guided mortar.



Cheers.

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Private 1st Class (سرباز یكم)
This is a very significant development for the Iranian Armed forces.  I have been searching to see if there has been any report of Helicopter launched Kornet missile.

With flexibility to target both armored ground targets and other helicopters and a range of over 5k, it would be a nice alternative to TOW missiles.
"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it."
Albert Einstein

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us
T. Sergeant (گروهبان دو
Iran Producing Missiles Based on Russia’s Kornet, Analysts Say
By Henry Meyer on July 09, 2012

Iran is producing new laser-guided anti-tank missiles modeled on Russia’s Kornet, the rocket used by Hezbollah in the 2006 war with Israel, according to defense analysts in London and Moscow.

The Iranians may have copied the design after obtaining it from non-state sources such as Hezbollah, said Igor Korotchenko, director of the Center for Analysis of World Arms Trade in Moscow, who’s also the head of an advisory council for the Russian Defense Ministry. Syria and the Hamas Islamic movement are also among possible sources for providing the technology, according to Neil Gibson, a defense analyst from IHS Jane’s.

Iranian Defense Minister Brigadier General Ahmad Vahidi on July 7 inaugurated production of the Dehlaviyeh anti-armor missile system designed to hit mobile and ground targets, the state-run Fars news agency reported. The Kornet has a range of as far as 5.5 kilometers (3.3 miles), according to its manufacturer, the KBP Instrument Design Bureau.

Hezbollah, a Shiite Muslim militant organization in Lebanon backed by Syria and Iran, in 2006 claimed to have destroyed two advanced Merkava-4 Israeli tanks with the Russian-made Kornet, which Israeli officials said was supplied by Syria. Russia hasn’t licensed Iran the technology to produce the Kornet, Korotchenko said.

Vyacheslav Davidenko, spokesman for state arms exporter Rosoboronexport, and Andrei Morozov, a senior manager in charge of media relations at KBP, couldn’t be reached for comment.

Syria, Hamas
“It’s most likely that a country in the area, previously supplied the Kornet by Russia, has supplied the missile to Iran,” IHS Jane’s Gibson said by e-mail. “This is most likely Syria, Hamas or Hezbollah, the latter supposedly supplied the Kornet by Syria.”

Syria had to commit not to re-export Kornet missiles at the time its purchases were made, according to Korotchenko. Iran could receive some technology and missiles through third parties such as Hezbollah as the Kornet was exported to dozens of countries, he said.

The Russian missile was also sold to Algeria, Greece, India, Jordan, Morocco and Turkey as well as reportedly to Azerbaijan, Libya, Peru and Uganda, Gibson said.

Once the missile had been supplied, Iranian engineers and scientists would have had to reverse-engineer all the missile systems, according to the IHS Jane’s analyst

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-07-09/iran-producing-missiles-based-on-russia-s-kornet-analysts-say

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Lieutenant colonel (سرهنگ دوم)
A tank is not like a bicycle where it can be taken off the field for repairs and back on the field again for action..Whoever believes that crap needs examination.

Fact is, the Israeli occupation/oppression forces(IOF) got their ass kicked..Several of their tanks where either destroyed or decommissioned. The reason they couldn't advance any further was because of that. Their tanks were stopped in their tracks so they had to rely on heavy air-bombardment and artillery pounding..Even that didn't stop Hezbollah from firing close to hundred rockets a day.

A tank doesn't need to be totally destroyed to be ineffective..Just the decommissioning the damn thing makes it close to useless..And then one has to take into account the logistical nightmare of rescuing the tank from the war-zone by engineers..They effectively become sitting ducks for snipers...

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Posts: 1930
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au
3rd lieutenant (ستوان سوم)
Fact is, the Israeli occupation/oppression forces(IOF) got their ass kicked..Several of their tanks where either destroyed or decommissioned. The reason they couldn't advance any further was because of that. Their tanks were stopped in their tracks so they had to rely on heavy air-bombardment and artillery pounding..Even that didn't stop Hezbollah from firing close to hundred rockets a day.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War
"According to Merkava tank program administration, 52 Merkava main battle tanks were damaged (45 of them by different kinds of ATGM), missiles penetrated 22 tanks, but only 5 tanks were destroyed, one of them by an improvised explosive device (IED)."

22 penetrations of Merkava by ATGMs, that is the overall score in 2006 Lebanon War (could be down played  by Israel army).

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Brother Skylark
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fi
Master Sergeant (گروهبان)
I guess that you know no tankers nor folks from the support units:) A lot of things are done at the field.. Tracks are changed by the crew in short time, with regular support units you can change engine, gun barrel, gearbox, wheels, parts of armour, optics, much of the electronics..

What comes to later part, that is exactly what I wrote. "Destroying" and "killing" are overrated and when defending against heavy armour (or aerial threat) it is more often than not, about denying from the enemy their best options.

And what did I wrote about Hezbollah?

A tank is not like a bicycle where it can be taken off the field for repairs and back on the field again for action..Whoever believes that crap needs examination..........A tank doesn't need to be totally destroyed to be ineffective..Just the decommissioning the damn thing makes it close to useless..And then one has to take into account the logistical nightmare of rescuing the tank from the war-zone by engineers..They effectively become sitting ducks for snipers...

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Brother Skylark
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fi
Master Sergeant (گروهبان)
Could you actually read what I wrote. Please.

So Israel lost a few tanks and a few guys but was unable to penetrate more than 1.8 miles into Lebanon with 10's of 1000's of soldiers and was defeated...but did not really loose any armor or men they just decided to give up since they are nice people
If buying into western propaganda makes you happy so be it

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Brother Skylark
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fi
Master Sergeant (گروهبان)
As there are people to whom certain things have to be underlined, let me re-iterate something.

Yes... not bad at all. But it seems that for some people only "destroying" means that the mission was accomplished. The fact being that killing and destroying... are overrated. And despite of what I say, I am not saying that Hezbollah did not prevail marvelously.

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Brother Skylark
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fi
Master Sergeant (گروهبان)
Concentrate guys, it is not that hard;)

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Brother Skylark
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fi
Master Sergeant (گروهبان)
And for some people who wonder,the keyword is armoured recovery vehicle:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_recovery_vehicle



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Brother Skylark
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fi
Master Sergeant (گروهبان)
These are extremely lethal weapons if they are just accurate enough. Either active seeker or laser guidance (and FOs).. Most of the MBTs have rather modest armour against top attacks and if you have these, every infantry group with FOs and mortar support will become extremely dangerous.


I hope this would be DIO's next coming project!

GRAN the 120mm guided mortar.

The GRAN Guided Weapon System for 120mm Mortars (English language)

Cheers.

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Vahdat, Moghavemat, Ezzat
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ir
Colonel (سرهنگ)
And for some people who wonder,the keyword is armoured recovery vehicle:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_recovery_vehicle



They can be shot at with ATGM's can they not? So when one tank is immobalized, they will send this in and then that gets shot too. Then they send in another one and that gets shot too.. now you have yourself 1 tank and two armoured recovery vehiacles and their personnel in the middle of a barrage of gunfire, artillery shells,  and the occasional RPG or ATGM.

My point when i replied to you is ; it doesn't matter if the tank was destroyed or not, as long as you immobilize it you have reached your objective which is to halt the approaching tank.

How effective is an immobilized tank? It still can shoot, but sooner or later you can hit it again and again and again until support arrives. Once support arrives they won't be in the best of position now will they? Therefore it becomes a liability.

So it doesn't matter if tanks are destroyed and then fixed later, what matters is on the field where there is an objective to be met on THAT day in that hour in that minute, the approaching tank is neutralized. Therefore the mission and objective are no longer met and as a matter of fact becomes a liability because it needs to be rescued/recovered.

Since this matter was brought up, and since this is not an American forum, perhaps it is worth it to respond to something that member "mustavaris" brought up>
In late 2006, the Israeli Army released "figures" of Merkava losses, and I am assuming that Mustavaris (and every amateur/professional I see online) have been relying on these figures (x tanks hit, y tanks penetrated, z tanks destroyed). Please, ignore all that: the only source we have on this matter is the Israeli Army, and if you choose to believe these figures, then you have zero critical faculty: A- Armies lie about these matters ALL THE TIME during ongoing conflicts, the reasons are too obvious to state, B- Israel in specific has historically  and consistently lied about casualties and especially equipment losses (since the early days of the conflict in the late 1940s).

Regarding "Hezbollah propaganda": I have personally read every statement that was issued officially by the party, throughout the conflict and afterward, and their reports have always been very level-headed and modest, even during the heat of the conflict. They almost never reported on events that never took place, and their casualty figures were always  closest to truth. It was Israel that reported on hundreds of Iranians fighting in south lebanon and thousands of captured lebanese fighters and a similar story almost every day of the 2006 war.

Lastly, the IDF gave naive westerners the impression that every tank destroyed in Lebanon was hit by a Kornet: if Mustavaris knew the amount of Kornet launchers available in South Lebanon on July 12,2006, he would not be making the assumptions that he made above.


Very well said. Of-course there can't be no reply to sound logic.

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