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Author Topic: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames  (Read 11972 times)

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Offline the8march

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2012, 08:32:14 PM »
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Some criticisim of US MRAPS (wiki/mrap)

"According to Army Times, some troops openly wonder about the design of some versions of the MRAP. Some examples are: why the rear seats face inward and not outward in such a way they could fire their weapons through ports, which some versions lack. The height and steepness of the dropdown stairs at the rear of the some versions can make getting out of the vehicle dangerous. Troops riding in the rear can hit their head on the ceiling from bouncing up and down in rough terrain. Medics told the Army Times that a soldier broke his neck after bouncing his head off the overhead, and another is said to have seriously damaged his skull after slamming into a protruding bolt in the overhead while wearing a soft cover."


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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2012, 08:46:19 PM »
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germanys supertanks (small version)






Online Ayyash

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2012, 08:57:21 PM »
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Excellent comparison. Note the suspension - two shock absorbers attached to the front two set of wheels; now there's precedent for doing so on the Shani-dar.

Comparisons to the Wiesal 1 are on somewhat shaky ground since it's a fair bit smaller and is more a tankette then an APC; the  Wiesal 2 presents a better alternative. That being said, one thing to remember is that there are still no actual Wiesal APCs; overall they're smaller and the most comparable model appears to be the recon or ambulance which have the larger superstructure. EDIT - It's actually very similar to the FV103.

Despite the fact that there are little to no 'frills' on this vehicle (i.e. any observation devices, weaponry, cupola) there's no reason it couldn't do reconnaissance work. From what I've heard the German's love their Wiesals in Afghanistan because they can take them on patrol and up the sides of mountains. The terrain in eastern Iran (and in Kurdistan to some-degree) closely mirrors this and I'm sure that a light armored vehicle that could be taken on patrol would be invaluable; this is actually a topic that has been brought up here on IMF before I think. In this role, the line between recon and pure-APC would become blurred.

Likewise, the lines between the two distinctions would become blurred if one imagined a war against the U.S.'s armored forces - something the translation of the commander's statement indicates they did. They would be APCs operating with a minimal footprint, probably with a high-degree of operational mobility.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 04:26:06 AM by Ayyash »
The Arkenstone - Zulfiqar Dimensions Redux (May 10, 2013)

Offline Crazy Ivan

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2012, 08:59:05 PM »
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lool I dont see them protecting your troops from insurgents rpg

I take it you haven't seen it either.

By the way, I meant the cage thing on MRAPS stop RPGs

Offline M-ATF

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2012, 02:31:01 PM »
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Ayyash,
Do you have seen information of KAT-72 Fire Control System as products of Ieimil (ieimil.ir) available since at least 2005?
Now those informations arent available on ieimil.ir but some forums like aerospacetalk.ir and network54.com have quoted them . Now KAT-72 Fire Controls System has been introduced on Modlex.ir as products of DIO.
One of the upgraded of M-60 MBT's that has been mentioned on Modlex.ir is using EFCS-3 fire control system too.

You think why they haven't used KAT-72's on T-72's till now?
I have seen on Modlex.ir that Tondar anti armored missile with 700 mm penetration is used by T-72, do you have more information about it? As I know Iran hasn't any AT-11, yes?

Offline ahriman46

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2012, 06:57:54 PM »
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why are we still using t72 tanks after 30 years?

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Offline ahriman46

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2012, 08:09:28 PM »
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Mh, maybe of the costs and resources and priorities (Airdefence is first, Missiles is second and so on).

Online Ayyash

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2012, 10:11:37 PM »
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You think why they haven't used KAT-72's on T-72's till now?

Assuming that the FCS's used to upgrade the T-54/55s were those models purchased legally around the mid-'90s it's reasonable to assume that when Fotona cut relations with Iran they would have to go through the reverse engineering process which would take time. Although Iran was ostensibly offering the KAT-72 (AKA EFCS-3-55) for export around the mid-2000s (according to the export websites), General Pourdastan's comment in 2010 about the Zulfiqar indicated that they were facing trouble actual putting the FCSs into production (it's unclear exactly what the trouble was).

Only in the last couple years have we begun to see the KAT-72 on a number of  vehicles like the M-60 Samsam, the Zulfiqar-3, and the T-72. Granted, we haven't seen them installed en masse, but that's asking a lot from a portion of the military we don't see a lot of anyway.

Another perennial explanation is that they just didn't have the budget to field this upgrade. Although I am of the opinion that fielding a modern FCS on tanks like the M-60, Chieftain, T-54/55, and T-72 would be one of the single largest force multipliers that Iran could offer to their armored corps, the FCS is still the most expensive part of a tank and retrofitting hundreds of tanks with them would require significant amounts of investment. From the little I know about the Russian armored forces, they face much the same problem.

Quote
I have seen on Modlex.ir that Tondar anti armored missile with 700 mm penetration is used by T-72, do you have more information about it? As I know Iran hasn't any AT-11, yes?

I can't find any record of the AT-11 on the SIPRI arms transfer database, but I've always assumed that they were delivered as part of the T-72 package deal with Russia as part of the standard ammunition loadout. The Tondar looks almost identical to the 9M119 (AT-11) Svir with the same capability (4 km range, 700 mm RHA penetration). There are some differences in specifications like weight but this may come down to different practices regarding nomenclature and classification of weights.

---

I mentioned this to M-ATF, but it's worth mentioning this point to everyone else as well. A while back some of us had a fairly productive debate here over the role of Iran's armored forces vis-a-vis the qualitative advantage in tank warfare held by Iran's adversaries.

Iran manufactures hypersonic kinetic anti-tank shells

I think this exercise helps answer the fundamental question which was at the heart of our discussion which was: "does Iran intend to use their armored forces in maneuver warfare against an opponent like the U.S.?". This exercise clearly demonstrates that they do, as evidenced by the multitude of shots of tank platoons supported by mechanized infantry squads in IFVs maneuvering against "hypothetical enemy armor". There's still asymmetric aspects like the use of of motorcyle anti-tank teams but it's still fundamentally maneuver warfare.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 10:14:26 PM by Ayyash »

Offline Apollyon

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2012, 03:22:16 AM »
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That cage seems a really cheap and potentially effective solution, but it looks like it's right up against the armor, wouldn't it make more sense to build it with a bit of distance from the vehicle so as to minimize the penetration?


I'm a layperson in military science, especially the technologies used, so please bare with me.
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Offline the8march

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #61 on: January 14, 2012, 06:55:41 AM »
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I asked once a military researcher about these cages. Contrary to what i used to think, they are used to prevent the RPG7 from exploding correctly. The sharp edges will cut the projectile like a shreder and the warhead will be destroyed.

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2012, 09:07:30 AM »
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It is through electromagnetism. If the rpg flys in, a trigger activate a electromagnetic field which diffract the metal-cone of the exploded RPG-Warhead.

The EU put some tendering for this kind of armor. I think it is for the comming EU Battlegroup.


http://cordis.europa.eu/fetch?CALLER=DE_NEWS&ACTION=D&SESSION=&RCN=30966

And what a coincidence, the german military factory Rheinmetall do a patent on this two month later ^^

http://www.patent-de.com/20110428/DE102009038630A1.html

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2012, 09:40:53 AM »
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The UK version of electric armor you can find here (incl. the cage-thing)

https://www.dstl.gov.uk/downloads/PhysicalProtection.ppt

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2012, 11:57:12 AM »
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On a second look i think Ayyash and M-ATF are right: It looks really like a "Wiesel2-APC"-version without the "Wiesel-addons". So maybe in this picture we see a version without any addons and maybe Iran already developed the addons but do not show them yet.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 11:51:52 PM by Ich »

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2012, 12:03:11 PM »
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I don't think there is any reason to show the addons. Matter of fact, they have all the reasons NOT to show it.
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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2012, 12:21:02 PM »
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If Iran will build them in masses, Iran also need an airtransport like AN-70. It looks like you can put 4 of this iranian wiesel in an AN-70 with additional equipment and troops

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Antonovs-Odyssey-AN-70-Program-Taking-Flight-05741/

Offline ahriman46

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #67 on: January 14, 2012, 05:45:07 PM »
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Mh, maybe of the costs and resources and priorities (Airdefence is first, Missiles is second and so on).
thats true..

Offline M-ATF

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2012, 05:14:44 AM »
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Ayyash,
Thanks for reply and explanations.

Quote
General Pourdastan's comment in 2010 about the Zulfiqar indicated that they were facing trouble actual putting the FCSs into production (it's unclear exactly what the trouble was).


He said there was problems in some parts of Fire Control System of Zulfigar, But in new modified Zulfigar those problems have been solved. In fact he says older Zulfigars had FCS too, but there were problems on their FCS system. He didn't talk about problems in production of FCS:

Quote
امير احمدرضا پوردستان فرمانده نيروي زميني ارتش در گفتگو با خبرنگار دفاعي خبرگزاري فارس، با اشاره به ارتقاء تانك تماما ايراني ذوالفقار اظهار داشت: تانك ذوالفقار در برخي اجزاي سيستم كنترل آتش مشكلاتي داشت كه در مدل ارتقاء يافته اخير، برطرف شده است.
...

http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=8905230376
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 05:16:52 AM by M-ATF »

Offline Crazy Ivan

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2012, 05:53:56 AM »
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If Iran will build them in masses, Iran also need an airtransport like AN-70. It looks like you can put 4 of this iranian wiesel in an AN-70 with additional equipment and troops

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Antonovs-Odyssey-AN-70-Program-Taking-Flight-05741/

That's assuming the US doesn't get air superiority, which isn't likely.

Offline aryaghiai

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2012, 08:07:57 AM »
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Iranian Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Ground Force units are conducting a military drill, codenamed Shohaday-e Vahdat, in eastern Iran to boost and demonstrate operational readiness to defend the nation.

Shohaday-e Vehdar wargames spokesman general Hamid Sarkheili said the main phase of the drills began in Khaf general zone, during which IRGC armoured units and commandos practised heavy fire against hypothetical enemies in five phases. The IRGC air defence units also practised targeting Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) of the hypothetical enemy during the second phase of the military drill, while the cavalry units carried out new asymmetric warfare tactics.

The exercise will test IRGC Ground Forces' new equipment and modern warfare tactics as well as passive defence under extreme climatic conditions particularly in desert regions. Iran also unveiled two classes of superlight personnel carriers and armoured ambulances during the drill.

IRGC Ground Force commander brigadier general Mohammad Pakpour said the war games are designed to enhance the capabilities of IRGC ground troops and combat units as well as increase security along its eastern borders. The drill was also part of Iran's preparations to close vital waterways from east of the Strait of Hormuz in the Persian Gulf to the Gulf of Aden if sanctions are imposed on its oil sales.
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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2012, 04:11:33 PM »
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That's assuming the US doesn't get air superiority, which isn't likely.

Sure. Or at least no AWACS over Iran and satellites are jammed so that a deep nightflight is possible. But i'm not sure about a us air superiority, i think its more equal.

Offline M-ATF

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2012, 04:19:26 PM »
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High Quality video of new APC's , video isnt new but in higher quality:

http://reza4087.persiangig.com/video/sepah%D8%8C%20nafarbar.avi

Thanks to Reza4087 at military.ir

Offline comandantecarlos

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2012, 08:05:28 PM »
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Wiesel mortar system Small | Large

These vehicles can be used for many things. South African style. There is the typical glazed cab.

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Re: IRGC unveiled two new armored vehicle during wargames
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2012, 08:11:50 PM »
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Does Iran have anything similar to this?

 

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