Author Topic: Tosan and Other Scorpion Light Tank Derivatives (Read 8081 times)

M-ATF · « **Reply #25 on:** April 29, 2012, 04:48:10 AM »

Quote from: Immortal on April 29, 2012, 04:18:12 AM

So Iran cannot produce its own Scorpian Tanks?

Also why was this posted in the naval section?

Sorry, I mistakenly posted in Naval section.

Surely Iran can produce Scorpion, But Iran doesn't produce Scorpion.
Iran has its own Sayyad program.

Simple Bubba · « **Reply #26 on:** May 06, 2012, 04:19:20 AM »

ok... Im qouting and took image from another thread, but it belongs over here instead of National Army Day...

Quote from: Lompe on May 05, 2012, 11:14:17 PM

The South Africans used a 76mm gun on there Rooikat wheeled armoured fighting vehicle, this gun was somewhat based on the Oto Melara 76mm naval gun. I think that there designed was somewhat based on the barrel and developed a different breech loading mechanism and made new shells for this long barreled high pressure gun, like APFSDS kinetic energy penetrators and HE rounds.

Like discussed before, these Scorpion tanks should be updated with the 30 mm 2A42 like already found on the BMP-2, together with a TOW under armour system.

Agree 100%... most likely what we have observed in the parade.

It would make sense to convert to 30mm ... the Brits did it a long time ago.... Scimitar Reconnaissance Vehicle (FV107) - The first prototype of the Scimitar was completed in July 1971 and accepted for service in June 1973. First deliveries were made to the British Army in March 1974 and first deliveries to the Belgian Army in April 1974. It has the same hull and turret as the Scorpion but is armed with a 30 mm L21 RARDEN cannon instead of the 76 mm gun. The first 30 mm Rarden gun appeared in 1966 and the first service examples, the L21A1, followed during the early 1970s. The design philosophy called for an anti-armour gun with the emphasis on accuracy, as opposed to high rates of fire, combined with the ability to be mounted in light turrets. The ammunition selected for the Rarden was based on that developed in Switzerland for the 30 mm Hispano-Suiza 831 L (now Oerlikon Contraves KCB) cannon family, but subsequent development has resulted in what may be regarded as a separate ammunition family

Iran's AMIG produces... The 30mm Anti Aircraft Shell is also manufactured in various types for different purposes in air defense operations. They are used in the 2A42 cannon fixed to the BMP-2 and can be applied against lightly armored targets at ranges up to 1,500 m and also against low-flying aerial targets such as helicopters. The HEI, HEIT, APT and TP (Training Practice) for each product are the various types manufactured as well as same for Naval Forces.

http://www.diomil.ir/images/Product/amig/Specifications/medium30.jpg

so my two bits... I'm not an expert but I'm guessing its a 30MM on the Scorpion...

Simple Bubba · « **Reply #27 on:** May 06, 2012, 04:36:30 AM »

I think this thread should be combined with ... $:-\$

"Tosan and Other Scorpion Light Tank Derivatives" ... GREAT INFORMATION...

didnt know where to comment so I commented in original thread "Tosan and Other Scorpion Light Tank Derivatives"

Ayyash · « **Reply #28 on:** May 08, 2012, 06:55:17 AM »

Re: 30x165 mm vs 23x152 mm
My hats in the 23mm camp for now. Initially I thought that the shape of the canvas cover on the muzzle-brake resembled the cylinder on the 2A14, but looking at examples of the same canvas coverings on BMP-2s (attachment #1) I think this piece of evidence is inconclusive. There probably is a distinctive shape, but there is reasonable doubt IMO.

However, I think the relative size of the barrel makes the 2A14 the most likely candidate. The 2A42 is a full half meter longer than the 2A14, 3 and 2.5 m respectively. Judging from M-ATF's photos, the gun on this Scorpion is closer to the 2A14 (attachment #2). This assumes the chamber is mounted in roughly the same location inside the turret. The barrel also appears to be lighter than the barrels seen on the BMP-2s, but I'm just eyeballing that.

---

I'm trying to figure out where the ammunition storage is for the main gun on the FV101, can anyone help me out? There certainly doesn't appear to be any room for it in the turret, which leaves below the turret ring as the most probable location. I wonder how much volume it takes up? Each round is roughly half a meter long and weighs around 7.5 kg. This means a full combat load-out of 40 rounds weighs 300 kg (approximately). A comparable weight of 23x152mm ammunition would equate to ~650 rounds. I'm not sure how many of these 650 rounds would actually be accessible given space requirements though (remember, each box on the side of a Zu-23-2 carries 50 rounds).

M-ATF · « **Reply #29 on:** May 08, 2012, 07:50:24 AM »

I think I hadn't uploaded and posted this one, this is better view for estimation of dimensions:
[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

RG · « **Reply #30 on:** May 17, 2012, 10:08:44 PM »

Quote from: Simple Bubba on May 06, 2012, 04:19:20 AM

ok... Im qouting and took image from another thread, but it belongs over here instead of National Army Day...

Agree 100%... most likely what we have observed in the parade.

It would make sense to convert to 30mm ... the Brits did it a long time ago.... Scimitar Reconnaissance Vehicle (FV107) - The first prototype of the Scimitar was completed in July 1971 and accepted for service in June 1973. First deliveries were made to the British Army in March 1974 and first deliveries to the Belgian Army in April 1974. It has the same hull and turret as the Scorpion but is armed with a 30 mm L21 RARDEN cannon instead of the 76 mm gun. The first 30 mm Rarden gun appeared in 1966 and the first service examples, the L21A1, followed during the early 1970s. The design philosophy called for an anti-armour gun with the emphasis on accuracy, as opposed to high rates of fire, combined with the ability to be mounted in light turrets. The ammunition selected for the Rarden was based on that developed in Switzerland for the 30 mm Hispano-Suiza 831 L (now Oerlikon Contraves KCB) cannon family, but subsequent development has resulted in what may be regarded as a separate ammunition family

Iran's AMIG produces... The 30mm Anti Aircraft Shell is also manufactured in various types for different purposes in air defense operations. They are used in the 2A42 cannon fixed to the BMP-2 and can be applied against lightly armored targets at ranges up to 1,500 m and also against low-flying aerial targets such as helicopters. The HEI, HEIT, APT and TP (Training Practice) for each product are the various types manufactured as well as same for Naval Forces.

http://www.diomil.ir/images/Product/amig/Specifications/medium30.jpg

so my two bits... I'm not an expert but I'm guessing its a 30MM on the Scorpion...

As I mentioned in "National Army Day" thread, the main problem is the effective range of the 23mm gun (2000m for ground and 1500m for aerial targets):

Quote from: RG on May 04, 2012, 12:41:31 AM

If the Wikipedia is correct, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZU-23-2, the standard Armour Piercing rounds for this gun have a penetration of 15mm at 100m range, yes "100" meters, that is like shooting at point blank! This gun is good only to engage soft targets such as unarmored vehicles and the infantry, but let's not to forget that most ATGM's have a range of minimum 3000m, which means even an unarmored helicopter like UH-1 or MI-8 or a Safir jeep armed with Tow atgm can engage this Scorpion without getting into it's gun's effective range (2000m for ground and 1500m for aerial targets), and that's the reason why the tank below is armed more reasonably (30mm+ATGMs).
P.S in addition to ATGMs I would add a couple of man pads as well since they're more effective than guns.

The 30mm BMP-2 gun, has an effective range of 2500m for ground targets, almost the same as that of the ZU-23. This means a Scorpion armed with that 30mm gun still has the same vulnerability of the 23mm armed Scorpion to even an un armored ATGM armed jeep like the safir let alone helicopters.
The 35mm Orlikon on the other hand has 4000m for aerial targets and over 5000m for ground targets + a bigger punch compare the 30mm BMP-2.
The point is to stay on par with the possible threats (ATGM firing land/aerial threats) in order to prevent them to get to their firing range and kill the Scorpion before it could even fire a shot due to it's ineffective 2500m range!
This tank still needs it's own ATGMs to deal with heavy armor since the auto canon is meant for light armor, soft targets and aerial targets.

Quote from: Simple Bubba on May 06, 2012, 04:19:20 AM

The 30mm Anti Aircraft Shell is also manufactured in various types for different purposes in air defense operations. They are used in the 2A42 cannon fixed to the BMP-2 and can be applied against lightly armored targets at ranges up to 1,500 m and also against low-flying aerial targets such as helicopters

Good point but, the 2A42 auto cannon itself isn't manufactured in Iran, while the 35mm Orlikon and it's respective ammunitions are.

Cheers.

Simple Bubba · « **Reply #31 on:** May 20, 2012, 06:21:29 AM »

so we have another possiblity 35mm gun...

looking at what Ayyash posted ealier... It looks like the 35mm would even be longer than what he has shown for the other systems...

$:-\$

do you think they have developed their own 23-35mm barreled gun system?

not an expert just throwing it out there...

good stuff...

Lord of the Rings · « **Reply #32 on:** May 20, 2012, 08:32:59 PM »

Man some of these look in horrible conditions...
why do we even make these?
I want Iran to make high quality tank etc..
you can say it will be a waste of money, but it's not like they mass produce them.
look at the zulfiqar, they probably only made 100 of them.

RG · « **Reply #33 on:** May 21, 2012, 09:11:06 PM »

Quote from: Simple Bubba on May 20, 2012, 06:21:29 AM

so we have another possiblity 35mm gun...

looking at what Ayyash posted ealier... It looks like the 35mm would even be longer than what he has shown for the other systems...

$:-\$

do you think they have developed their own 23-35mm barreled gun system? not an expert just throwing it out there...

good stuff...

I'm not and expert neither, but there is lots of information out there if Google for it.

The 23mm is one of the first AAA guns (therefore the most numerous one) that Iran has been producing for a long time already, the 35mm one is a reversed engineered Orlikon called Samavat that's been in production since 2008, and it seems to me that the Iranian armed forces (hopefully) are considering the 35mm Samavat to take over the ZU23 place as the mainstay AAA system.

Cheers.

Ayyash · « **Reply #34 on:** May 21, 2012, 09:26:54 PM »

I've heard about the FV101 hulls cracking because of the recoil forces from the 76mm gun. I don't think this was a huge problem for British Scorpions, but considering the age and combat-history of Iranian Scorpions it's possible the switch to the 2A14 was to prevent them from deteriorating further. There's no evidence to support this particular interpretation, but hull cracking is a problem that's been on my mind lately particularly as it pertains to the the M-48/60 cast hulls.

Iran shouldn't have any problem producing either the 2A14, or the GDF-001/002.

---

I've often heard the ZU-23-2 described as having a high degree of dispersion to increase the chance of hitting a small, fast-moving target. Combined with the guns high ROF, I'm wondering what the practical SOP for this vehicle would be? From what I've seen, IFV autocannons typically fire in small-to-medium sized bursts (3-6) followed by longer bursts (8-10) if required to destroy the target. The 2A14 fires at roughly twice the ROF, but would put approximately the same amount of HE down-range in the same space of time (explosive filler content - 23x152mm:19 g, 25x137mm:32 g, 30x165mm:49 g).

Thoughts?

RG · « **Reply #35 on:** May 21, 2012, 10:34:31 PM »

Quote from: farbod on May 20, 2012, 08:32:59 PM

Man some of these look in horrible conditions...

The only horrible looking one I can see is that of the Iraqi war against Iran photo, and considering the conditions in which the Iranians fought that war, (being under sanctions, lack of spare parts etc...) the tank's functionality was their main priority not it's look!

Quote from: farbod on May 20, 2012, 08:32:59 PM

why do we even make these?
I want Iran to make high quality tank etc..
you can say it will be a waste of money, but it's not like they mass produce them.
look at the zulfiqar, they probably only made 100 of them.

It doesn't seem they're making any Scorpions at all, they're rather extending it's service life, for example the ZU-23 Scorpion idea, in my opinion, is because they don't want to waste money to replace the worn out 76mm cannon, instead they throw in what they already have in very large quantity, the ZU-23. I'm sure the Iranian army is very well aware of the ZU-23 weaknesses against modern aerial threats, that's why you see more ZU-23's in infantry support role on APV's, Scorpions and light trucks and the 35mm Orlikons in AAA role.

As for the Tosan project, it's very likely a research project like the Zulfiquar (probably due to lack of budget). These projects are treated as "good to have" but must wait until the priorities are realized kind of stuff based on the Iranian defense doctrine.

The Iranian defense doctrine seems to me very much like that of the Communist China during the 1950's to early 1990's, that is; spend most of your defense budget on prevention/deterrence assets i.e missile projects etc... every thing else such as ground, air, naval forces would be limited to research and experimental projects until the proper funding, base on priorities (recent navy build up is the best example of that) made possible, and the regular armed forces are maintained just about sufficient enough to deal with regional threats like the deposed Saddam or the Taliban.

For example China kept it's copy of Mig-19 i.e F-6 and it's T-59 tanks (inferior than the original T-54) in active service for almost 5 decades while keeping their enemies at bay by maintaining their deterrence force until enough money became available to modernize the regular armed forces as well.

RG · « **Reply #36 on:** May 22, 2012, 03:06:36 AM »

Quote from: Ayyash on May 21, 2012, 09:26:54 PM

I've heard about the FV101 hulls cracking because of the recoil forces from the 76mm gun. I don't think this was a huge problem for British Scorpions, but considering the age and combat-history of Iranian Scorpions it's possible the switch to the 2A14 was to prevent them from deteriorating further. There's no evidence to support this particular interpretation, but hull cracking is a problem that's been on my mind lately particularly as it pertains to the the M-48/60 cast hulls.

I believe it's most likely because the Iranian army doesn't want to waste any money to replace the worn out 76mm guns, rather replacing them (the worn ones) with what's cheap and abundant in the Iranian arsenal, the 23mm 2A14.

Quote from: Ayyash on May 21, 2012, 09:26:54 PM

Iran shouldn't have any problem producing either the 2A14, or the GDF-001/002.

They're already making both of them:

http://modlex.ir/cgi-bin/store.pl/page=product.html/pid=MXF03-000160

http://www.armyrecognition.com/iran_iranian_army_light_heavy_weapons_uk/samavat_35mm_towed_anti-aircraft_twin-cannon_skyguard_radar_technical_data_sheet_specifications_pic.html

Again if Iran's only choice (for what ever reason) is restricted to the 23mm 2A14, at least they might be able to improve it's range, muzzle velocity and penetration by reducing the bullet to 14.5mm KPV while keeping the same 2A14 cartridge and barrel length (reduce caliber from 23mm to 14.5mm). It will need some modifications but it's doable. This will triple the range, muzzle velocity and penetration since the 23mm bullet is three times heavier than the 14.5mm one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23x152_mm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14.5%C3%97114mm

But still there is a need for ATGM and MANPAD systems in any armored vehicle upgrade if they're expected to survive and fulfill their mission!

Cheers.

Simple Bubba · « **Reply #37 on:** May 23, 2012, 07:18:00 AM »

Quote from: M-ATF on April 29, 2012, 03:13:08 AM

According to this report, Ground Force of Army has modernized Scorpion Tanks in two stages. The name of modernized Scorpion displayed in Parade is "KajDom" (means Scorpion)

M-ATF provided...
توپ 23 میلیمتری کژدم

برد آن نیز 2000 متر در حالت افقی و تا 2500 متر در شلیک مایل است و می تواند هواگردهایی با سقف پرواز 1500 متر را نیز تهدید کند. البته در شلیک به اهداف هوایی باید میزان چرخش توپ به سمت بالا را در نظر داشت که با توجه به محدودیت زاویه 35 درجه ای در برجک فعلی چندان زیاد نخواهد بود. همچنین این توپ نسبت به 23 میلیمتری های تک لول دریایی با دورانی 180 درجه ای نسبت به محور طولی نصب شده که احتمالاً برای جانمایی بهتر متعلقات در داخل برجک است.

هر چند از تغییرات در تجهیزات داخلی این تانک اطلاعی در دست نیست اما بهره گیری از سامانه پایدار کننده توپ در دو محور افقی و عمودی و نیز استفاده از سامانه های ارتباطی جدید و ساخت داخل که امکان برقراری ارتباطات امن در شرایط سخت را به خوبی ممکن می سازند و سامانه های تعیین موقعیت برای کمک به کنترل بهتر واحدها در صحنه نبرد به امری عادی بدل شده و احتمالاً کژدم نیز از آنها بی بهره نخواهد ماند. همچنین تجهیز این خودرو به پرتابگر موشک ضد تانک نیز می تواند به عملکرد رزمی بهتر و تنوع مأموریتی بیشتر آن منجر شود.

این گونه بهسازی ها که توسط متخصصان داخلی، با درنظر گرفتن تغییرات مشابه روی نمونه های روز دنیا و با هدف استفاده بهتر از تجهیزات موجود انجام می شود باعث تجدید حیات توأم با افزایش قدرت این ادوات برای حضور در عملیات های جدید خواهد شد

Doesnt this article say they have 23mm?

Looks like they are still used as scouts... I wonder if each Division has a Cavalry Sqdrn (Battalion) like the USA or each Brigade has a Scout Troop (company)

kyuss · « **Reply #38 on:** May 23, 2012, 11:38:58 AM »

The advantage that the 23mm gun provides over the 76mm is in reaction time. The scorpion is a Reconnaissans vehicle and there for its job is not to engage the enemy, Its armament is for self defence only. What the 23mm provides is a fast responce with a high rate of fire to suppress the enemy to give the vehicle a chance to take up position behind cover. If they require a heavier responce then they can call in Artillary to destroy thier target.

RG · « **Reply #39 on:** June 10, 2012, 03:53:57 AM »

Quote from: RG on April 28, 2012, 05:25:47 PM

I wonder if the innovators of the Scorpion tank with the 23mm gun and the one with two single shot ATGM have ever noticed armament arrangement on AH-1 Cobra helicopters before?
On a tank it looks more like this;

Iran can easily fit a 35mm oerlikon gun in place of the original 76mm one plus installing 4x tow launchers on both sides of the turret (so the gunner doesn't need to reload i.e getting killed by trying to reload) after every other shot.
P.S. the 23mm gun is no longer effective on modern APC or AFV's, attack helicopters and low flying close support aircraft such as the A-10 or SU-25, the 23mm gun wasn't even considered effective enough to be used on the BMP-2 let alone a light tank!

Cheers.

This is the idea I've been trying to explain all along:


KLIVER-multivehicle one-man firing unit (Боевой модуль Кливер)	Small \| Large

With the exception of adding 4 more ATGMs or Manpads on the other side of turret and using the Iranian made 35mm Samavat i.e Orlikon (single barrel version) instead of the 30mm 2A42 cannon.

I believe all Iranian APCs and AFVs must be equipped with this system to provide an effective infantry support and improve their survivability/success on the battle field.

Also their guiding system should be modified to enable them to fire two ATGMs simultaneously at the same target (on the same spot) when dealing with heavy tanks such as the M-1 or Challenger.

Here's an example:


Fire & Forget Kornet-D (EM) - ПТРК Корнет-Д (EM) -	Small \| Large

Cheers.

Ayyash · « **Reply #40 on:** October 12, 2012, 10:33:43 PM »

Recent news on the Tosan:
http://www.yjc.ir/fa/news/4025415/-%D8%AA%D9%88%D8%B3%D9%86-%D8%AA%D8%A7%D9%86%DA%A9-%D9%88%D8%A7%DA%A9%D9%86%D8%B4-%D8%B3%D8%B1%D9%8A%D8%B9-%D8%A7%D9%8A%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%8A
Notable Points:
- Based on the FV101, officially* confirming what many have suspected.
- Equipped with the Toofan-5 ATGM. This is unsurprising given the Jordanian upgrade of the same type posted above.
- 8x Smoke-grenade launchers, identical to Iran's FV101s
- First entered production in 1386 (2007/2008), but only entered mass production a year later (2008/2009). It's interesting that the public discourse on both the Zulfiqar and Tosan include delays by little-specified "problems", with "mass" production occurring about one year later. I doubt there's much significance to this, but there may be. This is consistent with brief announcement in 2008 by an IRGC Col. Although a year later, in 2009, the Col. said the same exact thing.
- Fitted with a "battle management system" (سیستم مدیریت نبرد) and digital communications(دستگاه ارتباطی دیجیتالی), which is used to network with other units. Networking may be a vacuous buzzword nowadays, but it's that way for a reason - information dominance is what wins Western-style armies their conventional victories.
- 90 km/h on-road, 65 km/h off-road. This isn't that different from the FV101s top speed of 80-87 km/h. I wouldn't be surprised if the engine was replaced, as have many other users of the Scorpion have done.
- 12.7mm and 90mm guns. Cockerill Mk III for sure. It theoretically could be the medium-pressure Mk 8, but I think the chance of that is as close to zero as you can get. Of course, the big question is what kind of ammunition they're producing for the gun. My guess is HE/HESH. Given the accompanying Toofan, there's less reason to invest in high-quality HEAT warheads. Something to keep in mind is the increase in weight: the main-gun and ammunition adds in 650 kg, the DShK adds on around 50 kg, while the TOW (with two tubes) roughly another 150 kg - a 10% increase in weight.

* - At least I'm hoping this is more than just speculation on the part of the article's author.

---

Quote

Looks like they are still used as scouts... I wonder if each Division has a Cavalry Sqdrn (Battalion) like the USA or each Brigade has a Scout Troop

While I can't speak to their deployment at the division or regional command (army? corp?) level, in the 16th AD at least, each brigade is equipped with some FV101s, however many that may be. Probably platoons or companies as part of a larger motorized recon battalion. I can't imagine Iran has enough left to field homogenous recon forces like they once did.

Ayyash · « **Reply #41 on:** April 28, 2013, 10:59:33 PM »

Recent public open-house by the 181st armored brigade in Eslamabad Gharb [ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Iran Military Forum

Author Topic: Tosan and Other Scorpion Light Tank Derivatives (Read 8081 times)

M-ATF

"Kajdom", modernized Scorpian Tanks of Iran

Simple Bubba

Tosan and Other Scorpion Light Tank Derivatives

Simple Bubba

"Kajdom", modernized Scorpian Tanks of Iran

Ayyash

Tosan and Other Scorpion Light Tank Derivatives

M-ATF

Tosan and Other Scorpion Light Tank Derivatives

RG

Tosan and Other Scorpion Light Tank Derivatives

Simple Bubba

Tosan and Other Scorpion Light Tank Derivatives

Lord of the Rings

Tosan and Other Scorpion Light Tank Derivatives

RG

Tosan and Other Scorpion Light Tank Derivatives

Ayyash

Tosan and Other Scorpion Light Tank Derivatives

RG

Tosan and Other Scorpion Light Tank Derivatives

RG

Tosan and Other Scorpion Light Tank Derivatives

Simple Bubba

Tosan and Other Scorpion Light Tank Derivatives

kyuss

Tosan and Other Scorpion Light Tank Derivatives

RG

Tosan and Other Scorpion Light Tank Derivatives

Ayyash

Tosan and Other Scorpion Light Tank Derivatives

Ayyash

Tosan and Other Scorpion Light Tank Derivatives