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Author Topic: Geoffrey Fordens Blog about iranian missle capability  (Read 823 times)

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Offline PeRXeRs

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Geoffrey Fordens Blog about iranian missle capability
« on: November 15, 2011, 10:51:14 AM »
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http://forden.armscontrolwonk.com/

I hope there is something new for you.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 02:58:10 PM by PeRXeRs »

Offline Catsoo

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Re: Geoffrey Fordens Blog about iranian missle capability
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2011, 02:48:34 PM »
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Iranian Warhead Evolution

By geoff | 9 June 2010 | 29 Comments





The family of Shahab-3 warhead variants as compiled by Tal Inbar and Uzi Rubin. The NRV, the New Reentry Vehicle, is shown on the right. Note it’s a triconic design but with a larger base diameter than the Ghadr-1 warhead.

Wonk-friends Tal Inbar and Uzi Rubin are reporting a new warhead variant for the Shahab-3 family of missiles—and hypothesize that it will soon show up on the Sejiil solid-propellant missile. This new variant, also a so-called “triconic” design (why tri -conic? It has always struck me as “bi” conic.), got me wishing I had done a full aerodynamic analysis of “old” triconic warhead when it first appeared. Well, better late than never. Now I can compare all three designs: the conical warhead that appeared first on the Shahab-3, the “improved” warhead design that is often associated with the Ghadr-1 missile, and the New Reentry Vehicle (which Inbar and Rubin call the NRV, a naming convention I will adopt here).

The supersonic aerodynamics of these warheads are relatively easy to compare using the program HyperCFD, a program I tested and reported on in an earlier post. As expected, both triconic designs have larger drag coefficients than the simple conical design. This is because of the shock waves generated at the “breaks” in the aeroshell—where there is a discontinuity of the aeroshell’s form. What was surprising to me, however, was the relative positioning of the Ghadr-1 RV’s and NRV’s Cd (coefficient of drag). The NRV, with its more stubby appearance has a uniformly lower Cd. Perhaps I should have expected this: it is, after all, somehow “between” the two designs: the Ghadr-1 and the simple conical warhead. (Area, something vitally important to the actual drag of an object, has been removed from the calculation of the drag coefficient.)





The coefficient of drag, Cd, for the three warhead variants is shown here. Note that the first “triconic” design flown by Iran has the highest coefficient of drag, the new reentry vehicle (NRV) drag coefficient is slightly lower but still greater than the simple conic warhead.

As that first break approaches the rear of the warhead, any differences between the simple cone and the NRV should go away. That’s arguing purely on a continuity argument, which is perfectly valid but would have been more impressive if I had seen it before I ran the Cd calculations. On a perhaps more physical basis, it is possible that this decrease in Cd is related to the fact that the shock wave originating from the first break in the aeroshell is much closer to the shock wave originating from the second break. This proximity could reduce the amount of energy radiated in the shock waves, but I’m just guessing here. These differences in drag coefficient have only a very minor effect on the trajectory of the warhead as it reenters.

Let me emphasize that the “normal” triconic RV only matches the reentry velocity and acceleration profile so well because its base diameter—and hence its area—is considerably smaller than the other two base diameters. Refresh your memory of the design by looking at the graphic from Inbar and Rubin at that top of this post. When I take the same design and simply increase the flaring at the rear to fit the Shahab-3 rocket body (i.e. increase it to 1.25 m), then the triconic warhead slows down considerably. In fact, it nearly reaches terminal velocity and “gently floats” down to Earth. Well, if you consider 310 m/s floating.

Warhead Stability and Warhead Volume

As far as ascertaining the purpose of this evolution of warhead designs is concerned, the drag coefficient associated with each warhead variant is probably less important than the question of stability during reentry. Stability of any projectile using aerodynamic forces to achieve stability—either an guided rocket or a reentering warhead—is determined by the relative positions of the Center of Gravity (Cm) and the Center of Pressure (Cp). For any such object to remain stable, the center of gravity must remain in front of the center of pressure stability of a missile (either rocket or warhead) that relies on aerodynamics to keep on a straight path is determined by the relative positions of the center of pressure and thecenter of gravity. If the warhead is going to be stable in a “pointed end first” attitude as it reenters, the center of mass must be forward of the center of pressure. If it is not, the warhead will start to tumble.

The center of pressure is solely determined by the exterior shape of the warhead and can be easily calculated by the same program, HyperCFD, that I used to calculate the drag coefficient at supersonic velocities. Unfortunately, the center of mass is completely dependent on the arrangement of the mass inside the warhead and, as such, is not knowable to outside observers. However, we can still make some interesting calculations if we assume that the warhead is filled with a uniform material and fill it from the tip of the warhead back. In the calculations that follow, I use a density for this material of 1.8 g/cc, the theoretical density of RDX, a popular high explosive. I should note that this is considerably greater than the average density of the first plutonium weapon, the Fatman, which I calculate to be approximately 1.2 g/cc but much less than more advanced nuclear designs. What we will do is look at the relative positions of the Cp and Cm as we fill the warhead to various levels, always starting at the tip and filling backwards. (This is exactly what happens when you fill a SCUD warhead with conventional high explosive.) But first, let us fill each warhead right to its very end:



The positions of the Center of Pressure (Cp) and Center of Gravity (Cm) for the three Iranian warheads assuming a uniform fill from tip to back. Note that all three are unstable when completely filled because the Cp is in front of the Cm.

Since none of them can be totally filled, we can ask the question: which variant is capable of holding more mass as the variant just ceases being unstable? While the final answer is as we might have expected, I was surprised by the intermediate answer. So surprised that I almost did not post this analysis. (Perhaps some are wishing at this point into this every lengthening post that I did not!)

If we leave the rear portion of each warhead empty, we can calculate the position of the Cm for different total fills. This plot is shown below:



The position of the Center of Mass (shown along the Y-axis) of each warhead variant is shown when it is filled to different points along the warhead length. To compare the three variants (the NRV and the simple conic warheads are each 3.5 m long while the original “triconic” warhead is 2.75 m long), the level of fill is written normalized to each warhead’s overall length. (The triconic warhead appears to end earlier than one but that is an artifact of my plotting program, which stops at the last binned mass.)

Note that the vertical lines are the positions of neutral stability, where the positions of the Cp and Cm are equal. If we fill a warhead to less than its neutral stability point, than the warhead will be more stable on reentry. If we fill it past the point of neutral stability, it will be more unstable . Note that the simple conical warhead appears to be a better choice since its neutral stability point takes a fill that is closer to its rear. (This is the place I got stuck on and almost didn’t get past.) But this result is somewhat misleading. We need to look at the mass of the fill for the three warhead variants—and it turns out that the “central barrel” of the NRV makes all the difference.



The mass of each warhead variant as a function of the high explosive fill. The vertical lines are the lines of neutral stability for each warhead variant. Note that the NRV, while of necessity having a shorter fill length if it is going to be stable, is actually capable of carrying more mass than the simple conical warhead. (Also note that the weight of the nosecone skin is not included in this calculation.)

A Purely Conventional Warhead?

Truly understanding the reasons for the evolution of the warhead variants would require an understanding of what nuclear warhead designs Iran might use. However, the switch from the initial triconic warhead—which came out some what after the Shahab-3’s simple conical nosecone—to the NRV makes sense for a purely conventional warhead since it can carry considerably more high explosive even the simple cone. Furthermore, the differences in dimensions of the NRV and the simple cone seem rather minor and would clearly be very dependent of some unique feature of a hypothetical nuclear warhead design.

http://forden.armscontrolwonk.com/


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Offline wisdom

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Re: Geoffrey Fordens Blog about iranian missle capability
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2011, 04:58:59 AM »
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Smart guy but in total denial...no body goes through all this for a TNT or conventional bomb that they could drive there in a pickup truck.  This warhead is for nuclear weapon...it's reentry design to create shokwave to cool and slow the RV, the skirt to stabilize reentry for a nuclear device...if it was a regular bomb no body would care if it was tumbling wildly to earth

Offline wisdom

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Re: Geoffrey Fordens Blog about iranian missle capability
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2011, 05:00:15 AM »
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I'm no expert but I'm not stupid either...I'm wise ;)

Offline wisdom

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Re: Geoffrey Fordens Blog about iranian missle capability
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2011, 05:34:13 AM »
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Speaking of experts maybe someone can explain to me why his warhead drawing seems off...now I know that Cp is always below Cg in an upward moving rocket during powered flight in order to adjust any perturbation during powered flight. However in the warhead since is going towards the earth the lift force the way he has drawn it will cause a torque about Cg and will increase the tumbling ...he forgot that warhead is going downward and Cp should be closer to the tail and not the tip. His drawing does not make any sense please some one enlighten me

Offline mohsin

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Re: Geoffrey Fordens Blog about iranian missle capability
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2011, 06:00:44 AM »
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perhaps you can  give your posts a bit more thought before posting. have two post saying the same thing is also a bit confusing.

answer to first two posts: what you said about accuracy and nuclear war heads is compleatly illogical and irrational. it was iran that developed the missile to strike at its enemies and not enemies developed the missile to strike at them selves that they wont care where the missile falls if it doest have a nuclear war head. infect iran would want accuracy even more so because its not using nuclear war heads. thats because with nuclear warheads, no matter where with in the area you strike, you will destroy every thing in the path of its yield. which happens to be much grater then the effective destruction range of a regular bomb. with conventional high explosives you need to make the missile as accurate as possible so to ensure that the military targets are destroyed.

answer to the second post:
during the "powered" phase of the flight, the missile is stabilized using mainly aerodynamics of the missile. the fins, jet vains, and thrust vectoring is also used in conjunction with aerodynamics of the missile. the scientist is talking about the reentry phase of the warhead. when an object looses its weight or goes at very high speeds relative to its size then it becomes easier for out side forces like air pressure and heat to affect it direction of movement.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 06:04:38 AM by mohsin »

Offline parthenon

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    • dem(AG)o(GUE)cracy
Re: Geoffrey Fordens Blog about iranian missle capability
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2011, 01:11:40 PM »
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Quote
I'm no expert but I'm not stupid either...
Same here.

Quote
with conventional high explosives you need to make the missile as accurate as possible so to ensure that the military targets are destroyed

I can't agree more!

Quote
Hamid | June 17, 2010

Azr@el: How confident must Iran be that they invested the time and resources into designing an RV for an ‘untested’ bomb?

I completely agree, you are creating an imaginary scenario. I think you may not be on the right direction! The number one threat for this missile capability is the ABMD system.

As you may know, Iran has a well-defined program to design Advanced Integrated Warheads (i.e., a type of warhead carrying several sub-warheads) to mislead the Anti Ballistic Missile Defense system, e.g., the patriot missile.

As you have probably heard in the news, after each test, the top officer always refers to this capability (or its improvement) of the newly designed warheads.

So, I think you should also consider this as a valid scenario justifying this revolutionary warhead design. To me (based on my observation and news) this is more realistic.

Maybe this "Hamid" guy is right and is the "NRV" primarily  introduced to tackle:

1) warhead separation issues (what happens to the missile body after separation?... see 2B)

2) aerodynamic issues
 2A) because of a quasi-ballistic trajectory?
 2B) ...will the separated missile body still be aerodynamically stable enough to steer to a
           second target like a MARV? Even w/o a full (2nd!) warhead the impact alone would
           cause considerable damage, while the much larger missile would lure the Missile
           Defence (MD) system away from the primary, "NRV" warhead.

3) other anti-MD issues?

As to the explosion recently, were they perhaps refitting Shahab-3's with the "NRV"?
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http://asymmetronix.livejournal.com

"Bunker"Bill, aka the "Member Formerly Known as Parthenon" (MFKAP)

Offline wisdom

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Re: Geoffrey Fordens Blog about iranian missle capability
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2011, 06:20:18 AM »
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Dear Mohsin
 thank you for trying to answer my question I'm sorry if my posts confused you. First I'm an aerospace engineer from Princeton so when I'm talking about stabilizing or tumbling of a regular warhead vs. Nuclear it has nothing to do with changing it's accuracy since spin stabilization it's in effect in both cases but for nukes it matters what way the head comes down. Second your next answer did not answer my point that in his drawing his center of pressure vs. Center of gravity are incorrect for a reentry vehicle...now if you can shed some light on why he has the lifting body center Of pressure in front instead of in the back of center of gravity I'm all ears...but please no need to be belligerent...I'm only attacking the writer not any one on this forum specially not you since I don't even know you...and I put a lot of thought in my posts  :D
Thanx again for trying to understand my post
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 06:24:33 AM by wisdom »

Offline mohsin

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Re: Geoffrey Fordens Blog about iranian missle capability
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2011, 08:42:03 AM »
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i am sorry if came on the wrong way but it still does not change the fact that you made two posts for no reason.

the drawing of the war head is upside down but i think it is ok because it explains whats going on during re entry. one can easily imagine it upside down to understand his point. the point i made about accuracy is in my opinion correct. the other thing about lack of stability is that it may cause the velocity of the warhead to decrease.

a quote from the article just before the picture
"But first, let us fill each warhead right to its very end:"

and i though that nukes didnt use a mechanical trigger?? arnt nukes programmed to explode at a certain point of the last moments before it touches down. why else would any one care how a nuke warhead came down?


 

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