Author Topic: How far is iran from india in missiles? (Read 4617 times)

V.eightsixty · « **on:** June 08, 2012, 11:43:32 AM »

Iran reveiled Qiam1 which was irans first no-fin missile, but from the images you can see at the bottom of the missile there are some sort of fins there, its not completley flat.

But the agni-iii which was made before qiam has more range, payload and has no fins whatsoever.

I dont know much about the technological side of these things so my question does this mean we are way behind india, or those little things under the missile doesnt have any disadvantages, or it actaully has some benefits.

Bhārata · « **Reply #1 on:** June 08, 2012, 05:05:21 PM »

I doubt neither India or iran make missiles with an intention of pointing it at each other.

Agni 5 is intended to be pointed at china and if need arises even europe while iran's missiles will be pointed at israel and europe so as to deter them from attacking iran directly.

Have you ever wondered why europe is licking the boots of the yanks now for a missile shield ? it is because of threat from asia rather than russia but it also goes against russia thats why russia is opposing it.

Lord of the Rings · « **Reply #2 on:** June 08, 2012, 05:36:52 PM »

First of all Iran uses non nuclear warheads for it's missile, this is not necessary the case for India since they are known to have nuclear weapons. Iran needs to make it's missile cheap and mass producible like the shahab-3.

if Iran ever is knows to the have nukes so we no longer need to hide them then we will see very high quality missile but right now we need them cheap and mass producible. I think India is miles behind Iran in terms of mass production of missiles.
so you can not just ask how far is Iran behind India...how do you know we are behind at all? just because we don't test fire a ICBM? well if we do that then west will say Iran has nukes because why else would they need an ICBM, and they would be right because Iran would be stupid to fit non nuclear warhead and a ICBM because imagine the number of them needed to actually make any considerable damage to our enemies in time of war and the also cost!

Iran sejill 2 is our most advanced missile they shown on T.V, and in my opinion given it's speed it will be used to destroy Israeli or our other enemies air defences and then the shahabs will rain on them. that is Iran's strategy I think.

we have some Info that we might be making an ICBM such as brother of commander, Gen. Hassan Tehrani Moqadam who dies in that explotion said his brother was making an ICBM, also the Israelis said Iran is making a 10,000km missile. I don't think all that is just a lie.

Bhārata · « **Reply #3 on:** June 08, 2012, 05:49:08 PM »

There is no need for hundreds of agni 5 missiles because it is mirv and each missile can carry multiple warheads. The warheads will be nuclear warheads so there is no need for mass producing hundreds of icbm's because it would be a waste since no one would blast hundreds of nukes on a country. At most a few dozen nukes would cripple any country.

mamdali · « **Reply #4 on:** June 08, 2012, 05:52:09 PM »

India clearly has an overall technological advantage in missiles and rockets at least from what we have seen displayed which has less to do with the ability to build or create ICBMs and more with the visible designs and sizes of the these as the original poster indicated. There is no doubt about it. Don't forget India just launched a fairly short and fat nuclear tipped 3 stage Agni-V ICBM with a 5000 mi range which, by nature, is more advanced than what Iran VISIBLY has ever shown. That said, the question is how far ahead is India and what is the relative rate of progress between the two? Iran's rate of progress is naturally higher for various obvious and not so obvious reasons and I believe there is no doubt about that either. My gut feeling is Iran is about 10 years behind and the gap will be closed, more or less, in about a decade maybe less.

Mamdali

Khodavandi · « **Reply #5 on:** June 08, 2012, 06:59:26 PM »

The indians have had a lot of help from the west and Russia

Quote

India did not build its missiles alone. The world's leading rocket producers gave essential help in research, development and manufacture.

France
Licensed production of sounding rockets in India
Supplied the liquid-fuel Viking rocket engine, now the "Vikas" engine of the Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) second stage
Tested Indian-produced Vikas engine in France

Germany
Delivered measurement and calibration equipment to ISRO (Indian Space Research Organization) laboratories
Trained Indians in high-altitude tests of rocket motors and in glass and carbon fiber composites for rocket engine housings, nozzles and nose cones
Designed high-altitude rocket test facilities
Conducted wind tunnel tests for Satellite Launch Vehicle - SLV-3 rocket
Developed radio frequency interferometer for rocket guidance
Developed computers for rocket payload guidance based on U.S. microprocessor
Supplied documentation for a filament-winding machine to make rocket engine nozzles and housings
Helped build Vikas rocket engine test facilities
Designed hypersonic wind tunnel and heat transfer facilities
Supplied rocket motor segment rings for PSLV

Russia
Supplied surface-to-air missiles which became the models for the Prithvi missile and the second stage of the Agni medium-range missile
Sold seven cryogenic rocket engines

United Kingdom
Supplied components for Imarat Research Center, home to the Agni missile
Supplied magnetrons for radar guidance and detonation systems to Defense Research and Development Laboratory

United States
Launched U.S.-built rockets from Thumba test range
Trained Dr. Abdul Kalam, designer of the Agni
Introduced India to the Scout rocket, the model for the Satellite Launch Vehicle - SLV-3 rocket and the Agni first stage
Sent technical reports on the Scout rocket to Homi Bhabha, the head of the Indian Atomic Energy Commission
Sold equipment that can simulate vibrations on a warhead

http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/india/india-missile-helpers.html

mamdali · « **Reply #6 on:** June 08, 2012, 07:15:12 PM »

Quote from: Khodavandi on June 08, 2012, 06:59:26 PM

The indians have had a lot of help from the west and Russia

http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/india/india-missile-helpers.html

Be careful, until relatively recently, India was under longstanding sanctions as well and to an extent comparable to sanctions on Iran. How different their relationship with the Soviets was compared to Iran, on the other hand, might be a differentiator.

Mamdali

Bhārata · « **Reply #7 on:** June 08, 2012, 07:15:26 PM »

Quote from: Khodavandi on June 08, 2012, 06:59:26 PM

The indians have had a lot of help from the west and Russia

http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/india/india-missile-helpers.html

That article is itself nearly 20 years old. When that was written India had no ICBM or even had agni 5 on the drawing board. Moreover DRDO and ISRO which are main bodies in the missile programme are still sanctioned by the west. And abdul kalam trained by usa ? thats laughable..it is the first time im hearing of it.

Besides the same could be said for every country...usa and ussr themselves "borrowed" missile tech from germany after ww2. If one has to go back into history then rockets were invented in china and were first militarily used in India by tipu sultan against the british.


Tipu Sultan (d.1799) Weapons Research, Warrior Empire	Small \| Large

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congreve_rocket

Quote

The Congreve Rocket was a British military weapon designed and developed by Sir William Congreve in 1804.

The rocket was developed by the Royal Arsenal following the experiences of the Second, Third and Fourth Mysore Wars. The wars fought between the British East India Company and the kingdom of Mysore in India made use of rockets as a weapon. After the wars, several Mysore rockets were sent to England, and from 1801, William Congreve set on a research and development programme at the Arsenal's laboratory. The Royal Arsenal's first demonstration of solid fuel rockets was in 1805. The rockets were used effectively during the Napoleonic Wars and the War of 1812.

Emirzaad · « **Reply #8 on:** June 08, 2012, 08:58:57 PM »

Right now Iran , India and Pakistan ... are standing on a similar level ... but we cant compare them because each of them have different approaches ... e.g. Iranian emphasis is on naval missiles because it can face a massive naval blockade in case of war ... same can be said abt Air defense weaponry ... While Pakistan and India are not facing US like Navy in their seas so priority changes there ... budget allocation , resource optimization , everything changes ... not to mention that india is a famous customer of military stuff , same can be said abt pakistan but their market choice is different ...

As a crude approach ... In terms of ranges ... these 3 countries match with a solid ballistic strike in range of 2000-3000 km ... although pakistan lacks MIRV ... while both india and Iran have MIRV ... i was expecting pakistan to answer the recent indian ICBM test but thy somehow got shy may be due to US pressure or may be they dint have anything to answer ... well lets wait for 2-3 years , military houses r run by rational not egoistic ppl ... while on the other hand Iran is already accused to have ICBMs because of Successful launches of SLVs in such a short time ... re-entry vehicle , Shahab-4 , Kowsar etc .

I would rate these 3 states as ... close to each other in terms of missile development .... But i must say one thing ... Iran is totally blocked in terms of buying anything from outside for last 32 years (considering that india buys alot of stuff , pakistan buys less but still does ) ... so we must praise the effort .. there exists no such example in whole world like iran ...

again i would say ... i m one of those who believe that no two countries can ever be compared in terms of military unless they r direct head to head rivals , sharing borders , with similar sizes , having similar resources etc...

Bhārata · « **Reply #9 on:** June 08, 2012, 09:50:20 PM »

Quote from: Emirzaad on June 08, 2012, 08:58:57 PM

Right now Iran , India and Pakistan ... are standing on a similar level ... but we cant compare them because each of them have different approaches ... e.g. Iranian emphasis is on naval missiles because it can face a massive naval blockade in case of war ... same can be said abt Air defense weaponry ... While Pakistan and India are not facing US like Navy in their seas so priority changes there ... budget allocation , resource optimization , everything changes ... not to mention that india is a famous customer of military stuff , same can be said abt pakistan but their market choice is different ...

As a crude approach ... In terms of ranges ... these 3 countries match with a solid ballistic strike in range of 2000-3000 km ... although pakistan lacks MIRV ... while both india and Iran have MIRV ... i was expecting pakistan to answer the recent indian ICBM test but thy somehow got shy may be due to US pressure or may be they dint have anything to answer ... well lets wait for 2-3 years , military houses r run by rational not egoistic ppl ... while on the other hand Iran is already accused to have ICBMs because of Successful launches of SLVs in such a short time ... re-entry vehicle , Shahab-4 , Kowsar etc .

I would rate these 3 states as ... close to each other in terms of missile development .... But i must say one thing ... Iran is totally blocked in terms of buying anything from outside for last 32 years (considering that india buys alot of stuff , pakistan buys less but still does ) ... so we must praise the effort .. there exists no such example in whole world like iran ...

again i would say ... i m one of those who believe that no two countries can ever be compared in terms of military unless they r direct head to head rivals , sharing borders , with similar sizes , having similar resources etc...

Everything pakistan has is chinese in paki paint. Dont bring down the effort of India and iran in whatever little they manufacture on there own by including pakistan. Name me one plane, helicopter, tank, missile, ship, submarine, anti-tank/plane that pakistan has manufactured or atleast designed on its own that is not a chinese clone or gifted to it in terms of "aid" by the west.

Tank - Arjun MK1 & MK2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arjun_%28tank%29)

Plane - LCA, AMCA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Medium_Combat_Aircraft)

Helicopter - LCH & Dhruv (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Light_Combat_Helicopter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Dhruv)

Missile - Agni, Prithvi, Nirbhay, Shaurya, K-15 Sagarika (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni-VI http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prithvi_missile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirbhay_missile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaurya_missile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_Missile_family)

Destroyers and frigates - Vikrant Aircraft Carrier, Delhi Class Destroyer, Kolkata class destroyer, Shivalik class frigate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikrant_class_aircraft_carrier http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi_class_destroyer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-15B_class_destroyer#Project_15B http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shivalik_class_frigate)

Corvette - Kora class, Kamorta class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kora_class_corvette http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_28_Anti-Submarine_Warfare_corvette)

Submarine - Arihant class submarine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arihant_class_submarine)

Anti-tank/plane/missile - Nag, Akash & AAD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_%28missile%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akash_missile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ballistic_Missile_Defense_Program)

All of the above are manufactured or in the process of being manufactured in India while pakistan gets shipments from china and usa. We are reducing our dependence on other countries...we still have a long way to go to achieve that.

mamdali · « **Reply #10 on:** June 08, 2012, 10:00:16 PM »

Quote from: Emirzaad on June 08, 2012, 08:58:57 PM

Right now Iran , India and Pakistan ... are standing on a similar level ... but we cant compare them because each of them have different approaches ... e.g. Iranian emphasis is on naval missiles because it can face a massive naval blockade in case of war ... same can be said abt Air defense weaponry ... While Pakistan and India are not facing US like Navy in their seas so priority changes there ... budget allocation , resource optimization , everything changes ... not to mention that india is a famous customer of military stuff , same can be said abt pakistan but their market choice is different ...

As a crude approach ... In terms of ranges ... these 3 countries match with a solid ballistic strike in range of 2000-3000 km ... although pakistan lacks MIRV ... while both india and Iran have MIRV ... i was expecting pakistan to answer the recent indian ICBM test but thy somehow got shy may be due to US pressure or may be they dint have anything to answer ... well lets wait for 2-3 years , military houses r run by rational not egoistic ppl ... while on the other hand Iran is already accused to have ICBMs because of Successful launches of SLVs in such a short time ... re-entry vehicle , Shahab-4 , Kowsar etc .

I would rate these 3 states as ... close to each other in terms of missile development .... But i must say one thing ... Iran is totally blocked in terms of buying anything from outside for last 32 years (considering that india buys alot of stuff , pakistan buys less but still does ) ... so we must praise the effort .. there exists no such example in whole world like iran ...

again i would say ... i m one of those who believe that no two countries can ever be compared in terms of military unless they r direct head to head rivals , sharing borders , with similar sizes , having similar resources etc...

Emirzaad-jan, Agni V has an announced range of 5000 km. Iran has nothing VISIBLY demonstrated in that range. I am not talking possible technical capacity but current implementation. The Agni V is also finless. I believe this single example put India ahead of Iran in IMPLEMENTATION which where we should focus on because it is the closest we have to comparison. India has a relatively good and demonstrated heavy satellite lift capacity Iran currently does VISIBLY has not.

As for Pakistan, I believe Iran is far ahead especially due to the space program which, as far as I know, Pakistan doesn't have an equivalent.

Mamdali

Emirzaad · « **Reply #11 on:** June 08, 2012, 10:31:51 PM »

Quote from: mamdali on June 08, 2012, 10:00:16 PM

Emirzaad-jan, Agni V has an announced range of 5000 km. Iran has nothing VISIBLY demonstrated in that range. I am not talking possible technical capacity but current implementation. The Agni V is also finless. I believe this single example put India ahead of Iran in IMPLEMENTATION which where we should focus on because it is the closest we have to comparison. India has a relatively good and demonstrated heavy satellite lift capacity Iran currently does VISIBLY has not.

As for Pakistan, I believe Iran is far ahead especially due to the space program which, as far as I know, Pakistan doesn't have an equivalent.

Mamdali

mamdali-jon ... On a scale of rationality yes ... Indian recent ICBM test has increased indian strike capability ... I agree with u and i also agree with u on the factor of "VISIBILITY" ..... its iran we r talking abt ... because of sanctions , international pressure , iran has to calculate every move , even a missile test .... otherwise , employing a re-entry vehicle on Safir II SLV is not a hard thing for Iran ... for India , it was quite necessary for india because of China ... so they did it , ... Congrats to them ...

while for pakistan ... their Space program is a very crappy one ... SUPARCO ( thier space agency ) has been there for 50 + years yet it hasnt launched a single SLV yet ... U r right Iran is way ahead in that regard and consider the time ISA has taken ... in recent years nothing has come out of Pak other than one Land attack TEL cruise missile along with one short ranged A2G missile .... which they fired from Mirage III if i remember the vid correctly ... i was expecting some thing in return to Indian ICBM test ...

Anyways , i m still standing on my stance that no two states can be compared as approaches and priorities are different for everyone ... For iran , its a very odd scenario ... its enemy is out of every-ones league .

Bhārata · « **Reply #12 on:** June 08, 2012, 10:52:18 PM »

Quote from: Emirzaad on June 08, 2012, 10:31:51 PM

in recent years nothing has come out of Pak other than one Land attack TEL cruise missile along with one short ranged A2G missile .... which they fired from Mirage III if i remember the vid correctly ... i was expecting some thing in return to Indian ICBM test ...

TEL Babur Cruise Missile

Tomahawk Cruise Missile

M-ATF · « **Reply #14 on:** June 09, 2012, 04:16:52 AM »

Quote from: mamdali on June 08, 2012, 05:52:09 PM

India clearly has an overall technological advantage in missiles and rockets at least from what we have seen displayed which has less to do with the ability to build or create ICBMs and more with the visible designs and sizes of the these as the original poster indicated. There is no doubt about it. Don't forget India just launched a fairly short and fat nuclear tipped 3 stage Agni-V ICBM with a 5000 mi range which, by nature, is more advanced than what Iran VISIBLY has ever shown. That said, the question is how far ahead is India and what is the relative rate of progress between the two? Iran's rate of progress is naturally higher for various obvious and not so obvious reasons and I believe there is no doubt about that either. My gut feeling is Iran is about 10 years behind and the gap will be closed, more or less, in about a decade maybe less.

Mamdali

I agree with Mamdali, Clearly Iran is behind India in both military missiles and SLV's.
Recently Commander of Aerospace forces (military missile power of Iran is under control of this branch of IRGC) of IRGC announced in two different interview that Iran has no intention to build missiles with more than 2000 km range because they don't need to it.
So we cant see any Iranian made ICBM by Iran in future (at least in near future).

But in the field of space program, Iran says develops Safir-3 SLV that is capable to launch satellites to GEO (through Parking Orbit), in next 5 years. So it seems speed of progress of Iran in the field of rocket and missile technology is very good and likely we can say Iran is around 5 years behind India in this field. I guess Iran doesn't use solid propellant engines for her SLV program.

M-ATF · « **Reply #15 on:** June 09, 2012, 06:29:17 AM »

Quote from: V.eightsixty on June 08, 2012, 11:43:32 AM

Iran reveiled Qiam1 which was irans first no-fin missile, but from the images you can see at the bottom of the missile there are some sort of fins there, its not completley flat.

They aren't fins.

V.eightsixty · « **Reply #16 on:** June 09, 2012, 10:49:46 PM »

What i meant was they are not completley flat.

Regarding all other posts on this thread, they are all irrelavnt to the question posed, which is "is irans first non-fin missile as good as finless agnis or do those things the botttom cause disadvantages?" and if yes how far behind are we from completley finless missiles.

M-ATF · « **Reply #17 on:** June 10, 2012, 01:26:52 PM »

Quote from: V.eightsixty on June 09, 2012, 10:49:46 PM

What i meant was they are not completley flat.

Regarding all other posts on this thread, they are all irrelavnt to the question posed, which is "is irans first non-fin missile as good as finless agnis or do those things the botttom cause disadvantages?" and if yes how far behind are we from completley finless missiles.

Qiam-1 is a completely finless missile, and those sections you indicated don't do task of fins. They are there because Qiam-1 has been built based on Scud missile and Qiam has inherited those sections form scud missile. Task of those sections are related to actuators of jet vanes.

This is a scud missile:

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Qiam-1:

V.eightsixty · « **Reply #18 on:** February 08, 2013, 12:08:41 AM »

So i started this topic a while back,trying to see if Iran is behind India in missile technology and how far. It seemed like Iran was behind but not by so much, but i just found out that Indian Shauya missile is hypersonic (7.5 mach).

Is that the only hypersonic missile in the world? and if yes how come they are ahead of US & Russia in this technology? And can Iran produce hypersonic missiles any time soon?

reza18 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 08, 2013, 06:27:24 AM »

India's missiles tech has great input from both the Ruskies and Yankies..How they manage that is hard to explain but they do it well..The Brahmos was developed with the help of the Ruskies..

Iran on the other hand, pretty much develops their alone...I'd say the difference is not that much..

Numbers · « **Reply #20 on:** February 08, 2013, 07:59:42 AM »

Looks like Iranian Ballistic Missile Qiam-1 does not have fins. Qiam-1 only has jet vanes.

Jet vanes is the latest technology that can be similar or even better than technology of the latest Indian Ballistic Missiles.

V.eightsixty · « **Reply #21 on:** February 08, 2013, 09:05:25 AM »

Quote from: reza18 on February 08, 2013, 06:27:24 AM

India's missiles tech has great input from both the Ruskies and Yankies..How they manage that is hard to explain but they do it well..The Brahmos was developed with the help of the Ruskies..

Iran on the other hand, pretty much develops their alone...I'd say the difference is not that much..

I don't think that's the case as members have explained above plus how could India get hypersonic capabilities with help of USA and Russia when they don't have it themselves (as far as i know)

Quote from: Numbers on February 08, 2013, 07:59:42 AM

Looks like Iranian Ballistic Missile Qiam-1 does not have fins. Qiam-1 only has jet vanes.

Jet vanes is the latest technology that can be similar or even better than technology of the latest Indian Ballistic Missiles.

I don't know what jet vanes is but India already has fin-less missiles, but comparing qiam-1 to Shaurya, Sahruya does have fins but its smaller with more payload and its HYPERSONIC, and to my knowledge no one else in the world has that, surely this puts India way ahead of Iran.

Also, doesn't more speed make it harder to intercept?

Dire · « **Reply #22 on:** February 08, 2013, 10:58:43 AM »

What are guys talking about? There's lots of hypersonic missiles and Indian BM's are probably not the fastest.

Chinese DF-21D Mach 10-14

Russian RS-24 Yars Mach 20+

USA UGM-133 Trident II Mach 17

Iranian Sejil 2 and Qiam Unknown speed (anyone? ), my guess Mach 6-10 since old scuds are Mach 5

Iran's missile program is far more advanced then they let on. Watching their space program and the fact that they have guided image recognition BM's, it's very obvious. They're also more concentrated on accuracy and quantity rather then payload or speed.

yavar · « **Reply #23 on:** February 08, 2013, 11:15:48 AM »

TO Bhārata

Quote from: Bhārata on June 08, 2012, 09:50:20 PM

Everything pakistan has is chinese in paki paint. Dont bring down the effort of India and iran in whatever little they manufacture on there own by including

what are you talking bout . iran in whatever ( little ) they manufacture ?
it true that India is head of Iran .
please answer this why did nt India had anything like Agni 5 before the seit jeck sing agreement between India and USA you remmber BUSH came over there . over nuclear deal and you sing some sort of MPT and got sanction remove.
the spy satellite india sent up you made it with help Israel you forgot that .
where did you got the propelled for your Agni 5 Missile Engine ? we know you cant make it .

Numbers · « **Reply #24 on:** February 08, 2013, 11:19:54 AM »

Quote from: V.eightsixty on February 08, 2013, 09:05:25 AM

How could India get hypersonic capabilities with help of USA and Russia when they don't have it themselves (as far as i know).

Most Ballistic Missiles are hypersonic.

Quote

I don't know what jet vanes is but India already has fin-less missiles.

Qiam-1 is fin-less. 750 km range. 6,155 kg weight.
Agni-5 is fin-less. 5,000 km range. 50,000 kg weight.

Similar technology, both are fin-less and Qiam-1 weight can be increased to 50,000 kg in the future.

India and Iran are pretty close in Ballistic Missile technology.

Quote

Also, doesn't more speed make it harder to intercept?

No.

"Maneuverable Warhead" and "Multiple Decoys" technologies do make Ballistic Missile harder to intercept.