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Offline sami86

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Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« on: November 29, 2010, 05:01:40 PM »
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Secret American intelligence assessments have concluded that Iran has obtained a cache of advanced missiles, based on a Russian design, that are much more powerful than anything Washington has publicly conceded that Tehran has in its arsenal, diplomatic cables show
Iran obtained 19 of the missiles from North Korea, according to a cable dated Feb. 24 of this year. The cable is a detailed, highly classified account of a meeting between top Russian officials and an American delegation led by Vann H. Van Diepen, an official with the State Department’s nonproliferation division who, as a national intelligence officer several years ago, played a crucial role in the 2007 assessment of Iran’s nuclear capacity.

The missiles could for the first time give Iran the capacity to strike at capitals in Western Europe or easily reach Moscow, and American officials warned that their advanced propulsion could speed Iran’s development of intercontinental ballistic missiles.

There has been scattered but persistent speculation on the topic since 2006, when fragmentary reports surfaced that North Korea might have sold Iran missiles based on a Russian design called the R-27, once used aboard Soviet submarines to carry nuclear warheads. In the unclassified world, many arms control experts concluded that isolated components made their way to Iran, but there has been little support for the idea that complete missiles, with their huge thrusters, had been secretly shipped.

The Feb. 24 cable, which is among those obtained by WikiLeaks and made available to a number of news organizations, makes it clear that American intelligence agencies believe that the complete shipment indeed took place, and that Iran is taking pains to master the technology in an attempt to build a new generation of missiles. The missile intelligence also suggests far deeper military — and perhaps nuclear — cooperation between North Korea and Iran than was previously known. At the request of the Obama administration, The New York Times has agreed not to publish the text of the cable
The North Korean version of the advanced missile, known as the BM-25, could carry a nuclear warhead. Many experts say that Iran remains some distance from obtaining a nuclear warhead, especially one small enough to fit atop a missile, though they believe that it has worked hard to do so.

Still, the BM-25 would be a significant step up for Iran.

Today, the maximum range of Iran’s known ballistic missiles is roughly 1,200 miles, according to experts. That means they could reach targets throughout the Middle East, including Israel, as well as all of Turkey and parts of Eastern Europe.

The range of the Russian R-27, launched from a submarine, was said to be up to 1,500 miles.

Rocket scientists say the BM-25 is longer and heavier, and carries more fuel, giving it a range of up to 2,000 miles. If fired from Iran, that range, in theory, would let its warheads reach targets as far away as Western Europe, including Berlin. If fired northwestward, the warheads could easily reach Moscow.

A range of 2,000 miles is considered medium or intermediate. Traditionally, the United States has defined long-range or intercontinental ballistic missiles as having ranges greater than 3,400 miles.

The fuel for the advanced engines goes by the tongue-twisting name of unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine, according to the secret cables. It is a highly toxic, volatile clear liquid with a sharp, fishy smell.

International concern about advances in Iran’s missile program increased last year, after Tehran sent its first satellite into space. Experts said it was clear that the second stage of the rocket, known as the Safir, had employed a new, more powerful class of engines that took advantage of some elements of the Russian technology. American government experts say the engines of the Russian R-27 represent an improvement of roughly 40 percent in lifting force over the kerosene-fired engines that power most Iranian missiles.

“Without this higher-energy output, the Safir would have failed in its mission to orbit a small satellite,” said a report issued in May by the International Institute for Strategic Studies, an arms analysis group in London.
The London group’s report, though, gives no indication of access to the American intelligence assessment. Indeed, the report argued that while Iran had some elements of the R-27 technology, the available public evidence suggested that it had made no purchase of either the complete North Korean missile or its Russian parent.

The cables say that Iran not only obtained the BM-25, but also saw the advanced technology as a way to learn how to design and build a new class of more powerful engines.

“Iran wanted engines capable of using more-energetic fuels,” the Feb. 24 cable said, “and buying a batch of BM-25 missiles gives Iran a set it can work on for reverse engineering.”

The cable added that Tehran could use the BM-25 technologies as “building blocks” for the production of long-range missiles. But it offered no information to back up that assessment.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/29/world/middleeast/29missiles.html?_r=1

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2010, 05:14:43 PM »
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Most likely BS to justify US missile shield ($) in Europe...

Offline 1979Change

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2010, 05:21:51 PM »
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Most likely BS to justify US missile shield ($) in Europe...

Iran does not need these missiles and I agree with you that this is a BS story to show Iran is developing nuclear weapons.

This is another story in a psychological warfare against Iran.

Offline yavar

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2010, 03:34:36 AM »
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is totoll BS  when  iran  has  missile  like  Ghader sejil 2 (solid fuel /two stage/with navigation targting )  Qium 1 .the last North Korea   missile test  faild.why  does  iran  need  to  buy  such stupid missile?

just  US BS  :)

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2010, 04:10:41 AM »
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is totoll BS  when  iran  has  missile  like  Ghader sejil 2 (solid fuel /two stage/with navigation targting )  Qium 1 .the last North Korea   missile test  faild.why  does  iran  need  to  buy  such stupid missile?

just  US BS  :)
It doesn't necessarily imply that North Koreans transferred the knowledge/expertise to Iran, just that they transferred the missiles to Iran. This in turn seems to indicate that North Korea purchased the missiles, not designed them.

This isn't unbelievable at all, Iran's purchased plenty of equipment from North Korea that Iran has improved and mass produced, this is undeniable.

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Online mamdali

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2010, 04:13:06 AM »
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It doesn't necessarily imply that North Koreans transferred the knowledge/expertise to Iran, just that they transferred the missiles to Iran. This in turn seems to indicate that North Korea purchased the missiles, not designed them.

Agreed.  If this did occur, then it is indeed great news.  It shortcut's the path and cost of development.  Never, ever, reinvent the wheel if you don't have too.

Mamdali
(Note:  I hope I'm being redundant by saying that given the state of misinformation and factless and unsupported content that is rife on the 'internet' today, naturally, I cannot endorse, believe, support, or accept any of links posted by me or others.  I personally find them interesting, however, as they open new perspectives for me.  I leave it to the reader to glean what they can or want from them).

Offline impera

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2010, 05:02:54 AM »
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Original document.
" There are claims that 19 of these missiles
were shipped to Iran in 2005, but there is no evidence for
this and concealment of such a transfer would be impossible. "
"For Russia, the BM-25 is a mysterious missile.  North
Korea has not conducted any tests of this missile, but the
U.S. has said that North Korea transferred 19 of these
missiles to Iran.  It is hard for Russia to follow the logic
trail on this.  Since Russia has not seen any evidence of
this missile being developed or tested, it is hard for Russia
to imagine that Iran would buy an untested system.  Russia
does not understand how a deal would be made for an untested
missile.  References to the missile's existence are more in
the domain of political literature than technical fact.  In
short, for Russia, there is a question about the existence of
this system."
http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable/2010/02/10STATE17263.html

Offline Eagle2009

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2010, 07:06:19 AM »
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The missiles they are talking about are the same IRBMs we saw on Parade in North Korea a few months ago. And indeed it is very odd that these missiles seem to be deployed by North Korea but have never been tested like their other missiles. The reasoning by many is that these missiles operate so much like the original Russian missiles (believed to simply be stretched for extra range), the R-27, that there was no need for testing. This is a pretty shaky explanation to me but I honestly cant think of a better one.

But clearly the Russian belief mentioned in the memo we now know to be wrong, the missile does indeed exist regardless of the fact it hasnt been tested and N.Korea even developed a good mobile TEL for it.

Now this missile also is likely much better reliability-wise than most of North Korea's missiles in that it is directly based on a Soviet design with the only major modification believed to be that its body was enlongated to increase the fuel and therefore extend its range.

That and its already been rumored for sometime that the R-27/BM25's technology has already gotten to Iran as evidenced in the Safir SLV 2nd stage engines and likely fuel (UDMH).
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Offline M-ATF

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2010, 07:36:20 AM »
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Safir 2nd stage is solid fuel but R-27 is liquid fuel, i dont see any similarity and relation between R-27 and 2nd stage of Safir, size is completely different, and another point is when iran has started designing 2nd stage of safir and when they say iran has bought R-27's


Offline Eagle2009

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2010, 06:19:22 PM »
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Who told you the Safir's second stage was solid-fuel?

It's been well established the Safir is an all-liquid fuelled rocket. It's even been largely proven that the second stage had to have used UDMH based fuel to achieve the orbit it did. Not to mention the images of the second stages' engines clearly show it uses liquid not solid fuel since the 2nd stage uses a turbopump which are only used in liquid fuelled engines. See below:
http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Diverse/Safir-IRILV/Safir.htm

The Safir's 2nd stage uses two small engines whose nozzles are almost identical to those used on the R-27 IRBM. The R-27 uses two different types of engines, one main engine and two smaller engines (called Vernier engines) which are very similar to those used by the Safir's 2nd stage. See link below for comparision:
http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Diverse/R-27/index.htm
While not conclusive it certainly raising the possibility of the technology reaching Iran.

Offline Eagle2009

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2010, 07:24:49 PM »
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Here is something interesting...

This is the actual cable this thread is coming from. It is a really interesting read, its more or less the US and Russia asking each other about Iran and N.Korea's various missile programs and how advanced they are and other tidbits. The shocking part is the Russians are much more skeptical about Iran's progress in its various missile programs and their abilites than the US is.

http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable/2010/02/10STATE17263.html

Online mamdali

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2010, 08:05:58 PM »
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Here is something interesting...

This is the actual cable this thread is coming from. It is a really interesting read, its more or less the US and Russia asking each other about Iran and N.Korea's various missile programs and how advanced they are and other tidbits. The shocking part is the Russians are much more skeptical about Iran's progress in its various missile programs and their abilites than the US is.

http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable/2010/02/10STATE17263.html


Eagle-Jan, there is a third possibility and a more probable one: the Russians were/are playing coy with the US. Considering their strategy of throwing stones into the USs path it would not and probably still does not benefit Russia to acknowledge Iran's progress. If they do, of course it will make it easier for the US to demand cooperation. To take it further, the cable can also be read in a sarcastic tone especially with the Russians claiming ignorance about the BM 25.

Mamdali
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 08:20:25 PM by mamdali »

Offline Eagle2009

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2010, 09:06:31 PM »
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Indeed those are certainly possible. I think the idea of the Russians purposely low-balling the numbers is quite likely in an attempt to downplay US fears of Iran's missile progress.

When it comes to the N.Koreans getting ahold of the R-27 technology they may be pretending to be ignorant because it's possible they may have known full well how N.Korea got that technology and them getting their hands of Soviet era SLBM technology doesnt make Russia look good no matter how much they knew about it. It either makes them look incompetent or complacent.

Offline Lur

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2010, 09:25:38 PM »
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let me sum up the report they wrote...Iran is technollogically at a standstill with progress only made on scud tech and little hope for advancing further, only able to make prototypes ...North korea using 60's tech
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Offline M-ATF

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2010, 04:20:50 AM »
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I hadn't seen these photos of second stage, i remember i heard on talkshow on Iran TV that second stage is solid fuel.
but those similarities of engines that have been indicated on those images aren't identical to me. yo can see differences even for those indicated parts.

North korean have failed launch by unha in 1998, and this site say iran has used that technology launch omid satelite to space?

I have no doubt that missile technology of Iran is more advanced that North koreans now.

even about first stage, we know first Shahab-3 prototypes that were built based on Nodong had 1300 km range, but Qadr has at least 2000 km range, so we cant say the first stage is exactly nodong engine, certainly has some upgrade.




« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 04:25:17 AM by M-ATF »

Offline Eagle2009

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2010, 07:57:01 AM »
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The North Korean Unha-2 and Iran's Safir actually dont have alot in common. The Safir and Unha-2 likely share a similar engine (though the Unha-2 using a four engine cluster whereas the Safir uses just one engine). But what powers the Unha-2's second stages is less clear. The German site i posted actually believes the Unha-2 may use the R-27's main engine in its second stage not the smaller vernier engines (which are similar to the engines in the Safir's second stage). But no one is really sure. Some have even suggested the Taepodong-1 (the earlier versions of the Unha-2) used a S-200 engine for a second stage and now a Scud engine as claimed by some. When it comes to North Korean missiles there is a lot more mystery than Iranian missiles since Iran is known to publish a lot of useful images.

But like I said before, no one is 100% sure the Safir SLV's 2nd stage uses engines based on the R-27's vernier engines, just that they look similar and its believed the Safir's 2nd stage burned UDMH just like the R-27s engines. The German site i posted even admits if they are the same engines Iran has improved their thrust dramatically (though considering their small size thats not a huge stretch).

All this is what made the Safir so impressive. It was much smaller, less complicated SLV than the North Korean Unha-2 but it was the Safir that achieved orbit first. But its no secret why. The Unha-2 is a three stage rocket and uses a complicated first stage (four engines). These two factors alone make it more difficult to successfully reach orbit.

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2010, 09:04:29 AM »
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I hadn't seen these photos of second stage, i remember i heard on talkshow on Iran TV that second stage is solid fuel.
but those similarities of engines that have been indicated on those images aren't identical to me. yo can see differences even for those indicated parts.

North korean have failed launch by unha in 1998, and this site say iran has used that technology launch omid satelite to space?

I have no doubt that missile technology of Iran is more advanced that North koreans now.

even about first stage, we know first Shahab-3 prototypes that were built based on Nodong had 1300 km range, but Qadr has at least 2000 km range, so we cant say the first stage is exactly nodong engine, certainly has some upgrade.



We have some photos in the gallery. Here are few examples:

Safir's second stage in the bachground

Second stage liquid fuel engines (without nozzle extension)


Lower section of the second stage


More images:
http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Rest_World/Safir-IRILV/Gallery/Safir-2-IRILV.htm

More detail:
http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Rest_World/Safir-IRILV/Description/Frame.htm
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Online aryana

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2011, 11:20:59 PM »
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i think iran need alot of testing and gaining experiens in this feald
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Offline wisdom

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2011, 06:05:42 AM »
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Iran already has surpassed Korea south or north in liquid propulsion rocket engines...the photos Are of preliminary designs 1st looks like a centrifugal turbo pump for both oxidizer and fuel, 2nd looks like turbine of the gas generator leading to exhaust shaft to be dumped along thrust chamber exit nozzle exhaust, 3rd pic shows what looks like bipropellant vs mono propellant over catalyst bed 2nd stage fuel cooled engines. The exit to throat ratio makes me think of upper stage...specially with the attached radiation cooled steel skirts, some people say is the r-27- i can buy that...but any turbo pump engine can be switched to gas pressure or blow down pretty easily, but  final pic is what baffles me most second or third stage do not use turbo pumps but this one seems to...I don't know why...but I think I see the solid rocket igniter for the gas generator and the miniaturized turbo pump...others on this forum seem to think this already based on web sites that they have read...I just think this tp assembly is so complicated for a second stage...but what the heck
Iran's showing off their new future simorg engine is way more advanced than this...this  looks  like the original stuff they received or reverse engineered before they got their groove on ;)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 06:27:34 AM by wisdom »

Offline shahab

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2011, 07:07:55 AM »
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Wisdom wrote:

"Iran's showing off their new future simorg engine is way more advanced than this…"

I wonder WHY he sees the cluster of four Nodong/Shahab 3 class engines as something so advance. On the contrary: IF Iranian engineers had placed 4 combustion chambers with ONE turbo pump - THAT would be an advanced design. At the moment, 4 complete engines with a pump each is very inefficient design, showing the lack of expertise in the field of advanced rocketry.


Offline Chacko-T

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2011, 09:11:04 AM »
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Maybe this missile will be usefull for space launches, but I think the solid fueled Sejjil is more advanced and practical for military objectives, and roughly both of them have a same range, so I dont think that these missiles will be mass produced in Iran.

Offline wisdom

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2011, 04:33:07 AM »
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Wisdom wrote:

"Iran's showing off their new future simorg engine is way more advanced than this…"

I wonder WHY he sees the cluster of four Nodong/Shahab 3 class engines as something so advance. On the contrary: IF Iranian engineers had placed 4 combustion chambers with ONE turbo pump - THAT would be an advanced design. At the moment, 4 complete engines with a pump each is very inefficient design, showing the lack of expertise in the field of advanced rocketry.


I don't agree Shahab. When you try to use a large turbo pump you run the risk of increase speed to provide large volume fuel or oxidizer for 4 separate engines. Now you need advance inducer pump impellers to prevent cavitation and damage to the turbine pump (tp) blades. You need higher tp rpm therefore need  for increase lubricant. At higher rpm you need stronger material to prevent buckling of the material, hence you build a stronger and bigger tp which ways more and decreases your overall ability to carry a payload. Now if you build 4 combustion chambers you must ignite them simultaneously or run the risk of explosion as fumes catch on fire in one from ignition of another. Also besides combustion instability you have vibrational and all others. All types of engines have been produced in the west but over 50 years of research with a lot of help from the germans. Now on the other hand if you want to do this on the cheap, quickly and decrease need for multiple tests and designs you do it with tested and proven tech ology. If you look at the engines that you dismissed their electric gas generator starters already show a great advance in the field of LPRE. But I am not saying that I luv the engines but they are still more advanced than any north or south Korean design, which was my original point. Hope It is more clearer. Would love some feed back  :)

« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 04:51:08 AM by wisdom »

Offline wisdom

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2011, 04:37:30 AM »
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Maybe this missile will be usefull for space launches, but I think the solid fueled Sejjil is more advanced and practical for military objectives, and roughly both of them have a same range, so I dont think that these missiles will be mass produced in Iran.
Solid prop rockets are much simpler to design and build than liquid rocket engines and they are great for war, but liquid propellant rocket engines LPRE are great for man mission, satellites and etc. Just think of this as you put a man into space you can throttle the engine lower as the fuel is burnt and rocket weight drops in order not to go above 3G of force so the astronaut does not pass out...you cannot do that with solid rockets ;)

Offline shahab

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2011, 01:01:08 PM »
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Wisdom,

Your analysis is fairly accurate - and validates my point - the 4 independent engines with a turbopump each is the Iranian choice since the advanced option - a common turbo pump -  is much more complex and in its current level of rocketry expertise Iran can not do it.

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Re: Iran bought 19 advanced missiles from North Korea
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2011, 01:51:23 PM »
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Wisdom,

Your analysis is fairly accurate - and validates my point - the 4 independent engines with a turbopump each is the Iranian choice since the advanced option - a common turbo pump -  is much more complex and in its current level of rocketry expertise Iran can not do it.
Based on your experience working at Iran's space agency you say this of course.  ::)

Anyway, Russia is at the top of the world with regards to liquid fuelled rocket engines.

 

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