Author Topic: IRGC Succeeds in Hitting Targets in Indian Ocean from Northern Iran (Read 2316 times)

Azeraaxsh · « **on:** July 09, 2011, 11:55:27 AM »

TEHRAN (FNA)- A senior commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) announced the successful test-firing of Iran's long-range missiles, saying that the IRGC has succeeded in targeting vessels in the Indian Ocean from a location in Iran's Northern province of Semnan.
http://media.farsnews.net/Media/9004/Images/jpg/A0109/A1091473.jpg

Speaking to reporters, Commander of the IRGC's Aerospace Force Brigadier General Amir Ali Hajizadeh said that the test of long-range missiles was conducted in February.

"In Bahman of the last (Iranian) year (January 21- February 20) two IRGC long-range missiles with a range of 1,900km were fired from a region in Semnan province at specified targets in the entrance of the Indian Ocean," Hajizadeh announced.

The commander said that the test was conducted at a time when American forces were also present in the region, and added, "Of course, we had declared that we were having drills in the area and we had closed that specific.

"We even allowed the US spy planes to be present in the region, although they never made an announcement about this issue," he continued.

Following the recent exercises, IRGC Commander Major General Ali Jafari said that his forces demonstrated just part of their capabilities during the military drills.

"Firing missiles from underground silos, hiding the missiles from the enemy, scattering missile stocks and using the element of surprise against the enemy… are issues that have been important for us and we have been working on them for several years… and a part of these capabilities were shown in the Great Messenger drills," Jafari stated on Monday.

Jafari said increasing the capabilities of the Armed Forces has strengthened Iran's deterrent power because of which the enemy was not able to carry out its threats over the past 2-3 years.

The Iranian commander added that Iran would not confine itself to blocking the Strait of Hormuz if any act of aggression was committed against the country.

The Iranian commander said Iran is after plans to fully exploit its defensive potential in the high seas, and added, "… if the enemy attempts to threaten Iran outside the Strait of Hormuz, the country has the power to retaliate and this strategy is currently on our agenda".

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9004183498

YMJ · « **Reply #1 on:** July 09, 2011, 12:13:23 PM »

They hit a sea target from semnan?

That's impressive!

alhadji · « **Reply #2 on:** July 09, 2011, 12:29:14 PM »

Mashallah! What missile was used?

YMJ · « **Reply #3 on:** July 09, 2011, 12:49:19 PM »

Quote from: alhadji on July 09, 2011, 12:29:14 PM

Mashallah! What missile was used?

Vaghean mashallah! Alllah o AKBAR!

I wonder if they used the sejjil to hit a sea target.

farbod · « **Reply #4 on:** July 09, 2011, 12:51:45 PM »

The fox news is gonna report this and say 'arrogant iran tests missile again'.
the us must be crying.

Nightstrike · « **Reply #5 on:** July 09, 2011, 02:58:11 PM »

Help me out here , how does a 1900km surface to surface missile hit a sea target? This looks more like a range test than an accuracy one.

YMJ · « **Reply #6 on:** July 09, 2011, 03:02:38 PM »

Quote from: Nightstrike on July 09, 2011, 02:58:11 PM

Help me out here , how does a 1900km surface to surface missile hit a sea target? This looks more like a range test than an accuracy one.

The article says it was aimed a specified targets. More information is needed on this, but its interesting if they are using a surface to surface missile to hit sea targets.

DarkOmen · « **Reply #7 on:** July 09, 2011, 03:08:59 PM »

this is a signal to the west that if they pull out their fleets from the persian gulf and station them in the Indian ocean that they could still be hit. i think iran has shown beyond any doubt that it can overwhelm the US fleets in the Persian gulf by using swarming/asham missiles. in response to that i truly believe if there is a conflict between the US and iran the americans will pull out their fleets out of the persian gulf so we will see more and more of these types of test by iran in the future to show that iran can hit targets at see far beyond the persian gulf.

Catsoo · « **Reply #8 on:** July 09, 2011, 04:30:26 PM »

It is getting more clear now! The Brits reported to IAEA that Ira had conducted at least two unannounced missile tests which they believed were Sejils. Time frame coincides with Jan/Feb this year. It all makes sense because Iran did not want to make noise about it and figured the West would hash up due to the impact such news would have on their public opinion of Iran.

So, here we go again, two more tests for Sejils for sure. Why I think they were all Sejils, well, Sejil tests as we knew occured only twice as shown to public (please correct me if I am wrong). Two more tests where conducted early this year and two more now, that brings the total number of tests to six. This should bring Sejil to semi operational level if not fully operational.

Now, what would be an operational advantage for Sejil for moving sea targets is where I need more information. Normally SSMs are used for static targets. I can assume that a targeting system such as Persian gulf missile could be adopted for Sejil but that brings two more questions, is the Sejil warhead as maneuverable as Persian Gulf ASHM? what about the targeting? We know Iran can use UAV's or manned aircrafts for PG ASHM targeting but targets in Indian ocean are much further and better protected. That will bring me to believe other targeting systems are either at works or already there.

Finally, another significance could be what IRGC planners had talked about years ago 'targeting Diego Garcia' the most important US naval and air base in that part of the world. Think about it, in war with Iran almost all US sea and air bases will be next to useless, at least on the paper, but long range air assets and sea assets at Diego Garcia will be the only one left.

Sejil's stated range is 2000Km, but is it really? the missile is assumed to have the same diameter and height as Shahab III but with the solid fuel its range must have improved considerably beyond the official statements for political reasons. Also, Sejil is the latest Iranian medium range missile, that undoubtedly means a new structure to say the least. What I draw is that Sejil must have a lighter structural weight in addition to a better propulsion system. In this case, what range improvement can we realistically expect in comparison with Shahab III? My guess is 50% or near that. What should we see next? It is simple, really! wait to see 'fin-less Sejil'!

If Shahab II range changed from 500Km to 750Km by removing the fins, what change of range can be expected from a 2000 Km Sejil w/o fins? How about 3000km considering the officially stated range? Diego Garcia is about 3800 Km from the nearest Iranian border town 'Jask'. But Sejil needs to improve its range to nearly 5000 km to have a 'safe' launch range to reach Diego Garcia. My assumption is that IRGC must be working on it!

My two cents!

Catsoo

maydayfire · « **Reply #9 on:** July 09, 2011, 04:53:17 PM »

Diego Garcia, Here we come!

Diego Garcia is USAF's main B-2 base for middle east operations which is located in the heart of the indian ocean. The island is a joint US/UK military base
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Garcia

I think the main goal is to be able to target Diego Garcia which is the main airforce base of America for strategic strikes in Afghanestan and Iraq using their B-2/B-1/B-52 bombers. the range from mainland Iran to Diego Garcia is more than 2000km. So in order to target Diego Garcia Iran has two options: 1) to increase the range of their ballistic missiles which is a good goal to have in the long term in general and requires a lot more R&D. 2) to fire an existing Shahab class/Sejjil missile from a platform from Sea, For example if the missile is fired from the upper part of the indian ocean stationed on a make shift cargo ship hidden in a container, then Diego Garcia is in range. Here is a video describing this concept:


Russian defense manufacturer is marketing the highly mobile Club-K missile container system	Small \| Large

Catsoo · « **Reply #10 on:** July 09, 2011, 04:58:00 PM »

Correction: In my previous post I preceived that the latest report refered to two new Sejil tests. My appologies!
Now, that changes my assumption of the true number of Sejil tests firings. With my count, I have four tests total.
If that is so, does it make Sejil operational yet?

Here is a video of the announcement:


Iran claims long range missile test

Catsoo

Eagle2009 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 09, 2011, 09:43:30 PM »

Gents,

Personally, I think when they state they aimed the missiles at specific targets to me its likely they either have a vessel or buoy of some sort that the missile was technically aimed at to see how close it would come to the target.

Also did they actually state they hit their targets? Because the article simply states they fired them at specific targets but never states they hit the intended targets, nor does the video seem to indicate that.

Catsoo,

There is a major problem I have with this story and it is I am not sure Iran has all the available technology to hit naval vessels at that range with such a long range weapons because of what the Chinese have put in place just for their DF-21D to work.

1. Radars- The Chinese use a combination of coastal radars and Over The Horizon Radars to accurately track moving naval targets at such ranges. Iran's recent announcement of the Ghadr radar could be related except it has been described so far as early warning radars which are traditional designed to track aerial, ballistic, and space targets not targets over large bodies of radar.
2. Satellites- Most sources agree the major factor in the successful development and deployment of the DF-21D is the large array of imaging satellites the Chinese have launched in the last decade including Electro-Optic, Infrared, and SAR equipped satellites. Iran has none of these operational yet.
3. Maneuvering Warhead- The DF-21D is thought to have a warhead shaped similar to the DF-15C, with movable fins that allows making course corrections after it re-enters the atmosphere. Iran clearly has maneuvering fin technology as seen in the Fateh-110/Khalij Fars but has yet to combine movable fins and a separating warhead as seen in the DF-21D. Iran certainly IMO has the ability to do this but has yet to do so for some reason.
4. Long Range UAVs- Used to supplement satellite imagery and provide more up to date positions for your intended target but of course we have to have UAVs with long enough range to accomplish such a task, something Iran is not known to have just yet (at least not out to 1900km). However if the target is closer (say <500km) you could use shorter range and simpler UAVs.
Now IMO the Sejil we have seen is not capable of hitting naval vessels because it has no visible way to perform terminal phase course corrections and therefore no matter what guidance system it does use, it can't be accurate enough to hits such a relatively small, moving target.

So, I see two possibilities. One, there is a new variant of the Sejil now existing with a true Maneuvering Warhead, perhaps similar in appearance to the DF-15C warhead design. Second, two Sejils were fired at a chosen position in the Indian Ocean (though technically the waters 1900km south of Semnan would be the Arabian Sea but I could be wrong) and the claims of them hitting specific targets is simply propaganda designed to send American military planners into a frenzy.

Personally I don’t know. I know of a few Soviet attempts at creating ASBMs in the 60’s and 70’s that used largely unmodified missiles with Passive Radar seekers but it is not known whether these concepts were ever tested or succeeded. The ability to hit a moving aircraft carrier in the open ocean at such ranges is one of those technologies that if achieved is a huge development but it’s not simple to develop. In other words, it can be done but you have to have the right equipment and technology and the proper integration to pull it off.

Nightstrike · « **Reply #12 on:** July 09, 2011, 11:52:24 PM »

Eagle thanks for the clarification ,

I dont think anyone expected them to hit their targets 1900 KM out in the sea, as the missiles were never intended to be used against sea targets.

The real question is , how close did they get?

Eagle2009 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 10, 2011, 12:55:10 AM »

NightStrike,

It is technically possible for such a thing to happen, since the DF-21D will have a slightly greater range and was designed in parallel to the DF-21C in which they both use the same missile design but the D model having a more sophisticated guidance system. Both are believed to have maneuverable warheads as well.

So it is certainly possible the Sejil could be modified for such a task, the question is whether Iran has enough of those elements I listed to have a trully practical system like the Chinese are planning.

Iran currently lacks the satellites for targeting as the Chinese use but they could in theory try to use UAVs as a substitute but this would limit the range of said modified Sejil to the maximum range of Iranian UAVs. In theory the Karrar has a 1000km range but it is hardly stealthy and would possibly be detected before it gets the information needed.

I am also not sure Iran has the proper radars needed. IF the newly described Ghadr radar can be used to track naval targets (which I don't think is the case), then it could be use and it has been rumored for years that Iran was working on an Over The Horizon Radar site but no confirmation of such exists.

I personally have little doubt that Iran could design a workable maneuvering separating warhead with the ability to perform terminal phase course corrections.

So at the very least, I think Iran has at least 2 of the 4 elements I listed that is needed for a long range ASBM and possible a third so theoretically they have the ability, I can only base my opinion on what is publically known.

YMJ · « **Reply #14 on:** July 10, 2011, 02:32:44 AM »

Eagle,

The recent satellite could not have been used for any of the purposes you mentioned?

Eagle2009 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 10, 2011, 04:34:49 AM »

Considering it is supposed to de-orbit in a number of weeks/months I doubt it. Iran needs up to date images and unless they plan on attacking a US carrier in the next few weeks, it would be of no use for such a task.

Also, for locating and then accurately tracking an aircraft carrier in a large body of water requires trully military-grade imagery resolution, as in camera resolution of less than 10 meters. The new satellite they just launched has a resolution in the hundreds of meters, I would be shocked if you can even find a carrier with such poor resolution.

Also a single imagery satellite would also not be suffice in my opinion. The Chinese have 10 "spy" satellites in orbit at the same time that allows them to have very up to date imagery of the Easern Pacific. And at the speed imaging satellites move, they will only briefly "see" the possible target, so you want multiple satellites so you see the same location multiple times within a fairly short timespan therefore giving you the most up to date location data on the intended target as possible before you fire the missile(s).

YMJ · « **Reply #16 on:** July 10, 2011, 12:46:27 PM »

Quote

Considering it is supposed to de-orbit in a number of weeks/months I doubt it. Iran needs up to date images and unless they plan on attacking a US carrier in the next few weeks, it would be of no use for such a task.

We are talking about the missile test which was conducted a couple of days ago.

So the satellite is still in orbit; My question is can that satellite be used for what you mentioned earlier; for THIS period of time doing these drills.

I think that could be a possibility.

Quote

Also, for locating and then accurately tracking an aircraft carrier in a large body of water requires trully military-grade imagery resolution, as in camera resolution of less than 10 meters. The new satellite they just launched has a resolution in the hundreds of meters, I would be shocked if you can even find a carrier with such poor resolution.

100 meters resolution is enough resolution to site a 333 meter aircraft carrier (Nimitz class aircraft carrier).

Quote from: Eagle2009 on July 10, 2011, 04:34:49 AM

Also a single imagery satellite would also not be suffice in my opinion. The Chinese have 10 "spy" satellites in orbit at the same time that allows them to have very up to date imagery of the Easern Pacific. And at the speed imaging satellites move, they will only briefly "see" the possible target, so you want multiple satellites so you see the same location multiple times within a fairly short timespan therefore giving you the most up to date location data on the intended target as possible before you fire the missile(s).

But we do not really know the capability of the satellite launched by Iran.

We just know what the government is claiming its capable of. Considering Iran is under political pressure, it would be best to be very modest regarding the military capability of the satellite.

We are not kids here; we understand claims can be either exaggerated or the complete reverse.

The launch of this missile and having a satellite in orbit, is a very unique coincidence don't you think?

YMJ · « **Reply #17 on:** July 10, 2011, 01:03:53 PM »

Quote from: Eagle2009 on July 10, 2011, 04:34:49 AM

Also, for locating and then accurately tracking an aircraft carrier in a large body of water requires trully military-grade imagery resolution, as in camera resolution of less than 10 meters.

I don't fully think that is accurate.

This is a 55 meter ship from google.

This is a 200 meter ship from google earth in the suez canal. While the other one's eye altitude is at 280 meters, this one is at 1.16 km. The orbit of the satellite will play a roll in having a better resolution. Considering the orbit of the satellite, the images definitely can be used for military purposes.

The width of the ship above is only 35 meters; while an aircraft carrier is at least twice that.

(maximum width of their flight decks is 251 ft 10 in to 257 ft 3 in (77.76 m to 78.41 m) (depending on the variant)) -wikipedia

Numbers · « **Reply #18 on:** July 10, 2011, 03:22:05 PM »

Iran's future strategy will be development of Sensor's technologies that allow to detect US ships and US Air Bases.

Here is the most effective technologies:
1) Over The Horizon Radar can see US ships at distance of 2,000 kilometers.
2) LEO orbit Thermal camera Spy Satellite can see US ships and US Air Bases anywhere along its path.

Nightstrike · « **Reply #19 on:** July 10, 2011, 04:26:56 PM »

Quote from: YMJ on July 10, 2011, 01:03:53 PM

I don't fully think that is accurate.

This is a 55 meter ship from google.

This is a 200 meter ship from google earth in the suez canal. While the other one's eye altitude is at 280 meters, this one is at 1.16 km. The orbit of the satellite will play a roll in having a better resolution. Considering the orbit of the satellite, the images definitely can be used for military purposes.

The width of the ship above is only 35 meters; while an aircraft carrier is at least twice that.

(maximum width of their flight decks is 251 ft 10 in to 257 ft 3 in (77.76 m to 78.41 m) (depending on the variant)) -wikipedia

Eye alt. Is NOT resolution. The images you're showing are probably a few meters per pixel.

YMJ · « **Reply #20 on:** July 10, 2011, 04:53:04 PM »

Quote from: Nightstrike on July 10, 2011, 04:26:56 PM

Eye alt. Is NOT resolution. The images you're showing are probably a few meters per pixel.

I understood that is the eye altitude, i even stated it in my post. The resolution is probably not a few meters per pixel, it would be good to know what the resolution are for the above pictures.

It still wouldn't make much of a difference when you are taking images from 200-300 km orbit with a resolution of even 100m. You would still see something as big as an aircraft carrier, which is 300m by 70 m!

We can compare if anyone has a picture for comparison.

But my point was Eagle said for this specific launch, to target something at sea from that distance, a satellite would be necessary and the coincidence is that Iran has a satellite orbiting right now during these drills.

The possibility that the satellite was used during these drills, is quite real.

Nightstrike · « **Reply #21 on:** July 10, 2011, 05:09:40 PM »

Quote from: YMJ on July 10, 2011, 04:53:04 PM

I understood that is the eye altitude.

It still wouldn't make much of a difference when you are taking images from 200-300 km orbit with a resolution of even 100m. You would still see something as big as an aircraft carrier, which is 300m by 70 m!

We can compare if anyone has a picture for comparison.

I dont want to sidetrack because there is little reason to believe Iran has the ability to produce such ASBMs , while it may be 'technically possibly' , its another thing to actually make one. Dont get stuck on the satellites.

But for future refrence, heres a good read on image resolutions with tens of exmaples and a chart I really like:

http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/docs/rst/Front/overview2.html

Eagle2009 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 10, 2011, 11:26:42 PM »

YMJ,

Except the resolution of the recent satellite if I remember properly wasn't even that good, it was 150 meters if I remember the reports correctly.

And I would have to disagree on if you could find a carrier with that kind of resolution. The reason is because I know that the 250km resolution of the Sinah-1 was reported to not be accurate enough to properly "see" a military airstrip which is many times larger than an aircraft carrier. So IMO an imaging satellite with resolution in the "hundreds" of meters can not be used to accurate find, let alone track an aircraft or any other naval vessel.

See below for an image taken by the KH-5 Argon satellites that had a resolution of 140 meters, almost identical to that of the Rasad-1, the images is of the Florida coast. Notice how you can't even see any cities in any real detail. As such, I see no way you could find an aircraft carrier from such poor resolution.

For reference, most GE images I believe are of modern military-grade accuracy, aka 5 meters or less depending on location.

So, considering the resolution of the Rasad-1, I see its launch and the this reported tests as being completely unconnected.

Now as I said, I am not saying Iran couldn't pull off this TEST. Whether they have the elements for a trully functional long range ASBM is the real question to me.

AK · « **Reply #23 on:** July 11, 2011, 04:47:06 AM »

Eagle,

I have to disagree here. The picture you posted is either taken by another satellite or it has been downsized. Florida at Lake Okeechobee is over 200 km wide. your picture is almost 460 pixels wide. So if you do the math 460 pixels would cover less than 65 km * 65 km area where the photo is showing a region larger than 500 km * 500 km. In addition, the gif you uploaded has been compressed badly and is not a good example.

Another note is that what can be resolved in an image depends on many thing such as the color/light intensity difference between two objects (foreground and background or neighboring objects) and the actual projection of the object on sensor cells. Imagine if a one pixel by 1 pixel object (140 m * 140 m in the case of KH-5 Argon satellite) was projected so it exactly falls on one cell of the imaging sensor. In this case it can be easily resolved in the picture taken. However, if the projected image of the one pixel by one pixel wide object falls on two or more (up to four) cells of the sensor then it becomes much harder to resolve it on the big picture.

Also, I should mention that sometimes an object smaller than one pixels can be resolved.

Eagle2009 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 11, 2011, 05:11:14 AM »

AK,

That file name is accurate. Notice how it even indicates the date the image was taken and at the time the only American satellite with that kind of resolution was the KH-5 Argons. In fact this particular image was released by the CIA. As such I see no reason to doubt the images authenticity and identity. More specifically the image was declassifed and released to the Federation of American Scientists who then posted it.

Also if you read into the Argon program you find the satellite was not used trully for military purposes but was used for mapping purposes. For example the Argons were the first satellites to take images of Antartica. Today we call such satellites Earth Observation satellites (like Iran's Sina-1) because they don't have the resolution to see things like cities let alone military bases in detail and instead are intended to just take images of a certain region.

As such, I stand by my previous statement. IMO it is nearly if not impossible to find a target as small as an aircraft carrier with a satellite camera with a resolution as low as 150 meters.