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Offline Catsoo

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Iranian Navy Receives 3 Ghadir-Class Submarines
« on: November 26, 2011, 02:51:30 PM »
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Iranian Navy Receives 3 Ghadir-Class Submarines

TEHRAN (FNA)- The Iranian Navy expanded the fleet of its submarines after it received three more Ghadir-class submarines today, Iranian Army's Navy Commander Rear Admiral Habibollah Sayyari announced on Saturday.
   

Speaking to reporters in a press conference here in Tehran on Saturday, the Navy commander underlined that all parts of the submarines have been designed and manufactured by Iranian experts.

"All parts of these submarines, including their body and their advanced radar equipment and defense systems, have been designed and manufactured by our country's defense experts and with the help of the Defense Ministry," he said.

Iranian commanders had earlier said that Ghadir-class submarines boosted the Navy's capability in defending the country's territorial waters.

The submarine has been designed and manufactured according to the geographical and climate conditions and specifications of Iranian waters, according to military experts.

Last August Iran launched four light and advanced submarines. The Ghadir-class submarines, made by the Defense Ministry's Marine Industries, officially joined Iran's naval fleet in an official ceremony attended by Iranian Defense Minister Brigadier General Ahmad Vahidi and Rear Admiral Sayyari.

Iran announced in June 2009 that a home-made submarine, named Ghadir 948, had joined the naval brigade of the first naval zone.

In November 2009, Iran announced that its first domestically built Ghadir class submarine launched operation.

The Iranian military officials said that the submarine can easily evade detection as it is equipped with sonar-evading technology and can fire missiles and torpedoes simultaneously.

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9007274899

Offline YMJ

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Re: Iranian Navy Receives 3 Ghadir-Class Submarines
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2011, 03:02:01 PM »
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How quiet are these submarines? Undetecable?

They are the perfect size for shallow Persian Gulf waters.
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Re: Iranian Navy Receives 3 Ghadir-Class Submarines
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2011, 03:43:46 PM »
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Maybe these include some of those we saw this summer when Khamenei visited Bandar-e Abbas.
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Offline Harry_Thomason

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Re: Iranian Navy Receives 3 Ghadir-Class Submarines
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2011, 04:05:44 PM »
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How quiet are these submarines? Undetecable?

They are the perfect size for shallow Persian Gulf waters.


Its extremely quiet diesel subs, against which US has no real defense, and thats why Iran is stacking them  :)

Lots of examples what similar subs can do:
http://www.defence dot pk/forums/military-forum/142292-dutch-submarine-sinks-half-us-navy-ctf-1990-more.html

As I understand, Iran uses in subs Hoot torpedoes (Shkval), which has silent start, to avoid submarine detection even after torpedo launch.

Offline YMJ

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Re: Iranian Navy Receives 3 Ghadir-Class Submarines
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2011, 04:17:22 PM »
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This seems like a super-submarine, for the waters of the persian gulf at least.

There are 17 of them in commission now officially, but could there be more in the IRGC navy hands that have not been made public?


Offline Harry_Thomason

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Re: Iranian Navy Receives 3 Ghadir-Class Submarines
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2011, 04:27:40 PM »
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Only IRGC can answer how many really are  ;)  17 Ghadir + ~10 other types of subs, ~27 officially announced. Quite enough to do major damage.

Offline PERSPOLIS

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Re: Iranian Navy Receives 3 Ghadir-Class Submarines
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2011, 01:27:38 AM »
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it is good to buy Iranian subs; otherwise this will happen to you

Why do Russian generals criticize Russian arms?


18.11.2011

 


 
Russian top defense officials say it again: Russian arms are worse than their Western analogues. The latest statement on the subject was made by Nikolai Makarov, the Chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Russia. Russian defense officials have already expressed their concerns about the quality of Kalashnikov assault rifles, SVD sniper rifles and T-90 tanks. This time, Mr. Makarov criticized Smerch (Tornado) multiple rocket launchers.
 
Russia's T-90 tank lags far behind Israel's Merkava-MK4, whereas Smerch is much worse than USA's HIMARS, the general said. Makarov claimed that the firing range of the Merkava-4 tank is 6 kilometers vs. 2.5 kilometers of the T-90. In its turn, Smerch systems are capable of striking targets in the radius of 70 kilometers. This makes the Russian multiple rocket launcher inferior to USA's HIMARS, which is supposedly capable of destroying enemy's forces at a distance of up to 150 kilometers.
 
In addition, Makarov said, Russia's modern military hardware does not guarantee a high level of protection for personnel on battlefields. "We must make the hardware which would keep people alive in any conditions," he said.
 
The general also criticized Russian optoelectronic reconnaissance spacecraft. The spacecraft, the official said, last only for three or five years, whereas foreign analogues operate for 15 years.




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Alexander Postnikov, the commander of Russian ground forces, stated earlier, in March 2011, that the hardware produced by the Russian defense industry, particularly armored hardware, artillery and small arms, could not compete vs. NATO and even Chinese weapon systems. Postnikov also said that it would be much easier for Russia to purchase three Leopard tanks instead of spending 118 million rubles on building one T-90 tank.
 
Experts stated, though, that most recent modifications of Leopard tanks were much more expensive than the legendary T-90. In addition, the Leopards would not operate very well under Russian service conditions.
 
It is worthy of note that Russia already buys weapon systems from other countries. In addition to small arms for special units, Russia buys unmanned aircraft from Israel, Mistral helicopter carriers from France, Iveco LMV Lynx from Italy and Rheinmetall armor from Germany.
 
Is the situation as sad as Nikolai Makarov sees it? Pravda.Ru asked this and other questions to Konstantin Sivkov, the first vice president of the Academy of Geopolitical Problems.
 
"The new attacks against Russian arms mean that Russia needs to justify its purchases of defense products from foreign enterprises. Unfortunately, I have to admit that the tradition to destroy the national defense industry, which began during Yeltsin's times, continues today. Years ago, Yeltsin was doing it under the pretext of having no external enemies.
 
"Many important defense enterprises were shut down. Now they want to destroy the national defense industry by purchasing military hardware from abroad. It is possible to improve the situation, though. One only needs the funds to modernize the industrial base, prepare qualified personnel and develop the vital industry in general.

"Makarov compares Soviet-era weapon systems to state-of-the-art products of foreign countries. As for T-90 tanks, I would like to know which modification of this tank exactly raises concerns with Mr. Makarov. The T-90 appeared in the USSR at the end of the 1980s, whereas Israel passed Merkava-4 tanks into service in 2002. I'd like to say here that Merkava-4 tanks proved to be vulnerable against Russian anti-tank complexes during the war in Lebanon in 2006.
 
"As for the firing range, the general is not right either. It particularly goes about Merkava's ability to attack with anti-tank LAHAT missiles. It seems that Makarov has forgotten that T-90 tanks are also equipped with anti-tank complexes. With such complexes, the Russian tank can strike targets at a distance of up to 5.5 kilometers.
 
"Nevertheless, the T-90 has gone out of date a little in a quarter of a century. Why not investing in new products then? One would not have to spend billions that the country currently spends on purchasing foreign arms. We developed Black Eagle, or Molot tanks, for example, at the end of the Soviet era. What is more, Russia can launch the T-95 tank, whose performance is much better than that of its predecessor. As for the protection of the personnel, which Makarov pointed out as a problem, the T-95 has a special capsule, in which military men will stay alive in case of attack.
 
As for the comparison drawn between Russian Smerch and American HIMARS, Mr. Makarov is mistaken too.  HIMARS is not a classic multiple artillery rocket system. It is an artillery tactical missile complex. There are two variants of HIMARS. The system carries six volley fire rockets with range of 45-70 km. Russia's Smerch carries 12 rockets. General Makarov has also forgotten that there were powerful ammos designed for Smerch. Their impact zone is up to 90 kilometers. HIMARS's firing range of 150 kilometers, as Makarov noticed, refers to ATACMS tactical missiles. Tactical missiles and the missiles of multiple artillery rocket systems are two absolutely different things.
 
"We have our analogue of such system - this is Tochka-M, which, like Smerch, was designed during the 1980s. Its firing ranger is smaller than that of HIMARS - 120 km, but its precision is higher. Iskander systems will replace Tochka-M in the near future. Iskander's firing range is 280 km, which makes any further discussion about HIMARS pointless.
 
"Our officials crack down on the weapons of the past and refuse to believe that the problem can be solved by developing the nation's defense industry. If we continue to purchase military hardware from other countries, the Russian defense industry will die. The defense complex can not develop alone, without the support from the state. As a result, Russia supports the economies of other countries, although we need to support our own economy.
 
"One should bear in mind the fact that Western weapon systems will never wage war against their creators. We could see that in Iraq. Saddam Hussein had US and French air defense complexes, but they simply deactivated them during Operation Desert Storm. If we buy arms from abroad, we become dependent on their producers. Everything that we purchase may turn into metal scrap if we receive no spare parts and fuel one day."
 
Sergei Balmasov
 
Pravda.Ru
 
Read the original in Russian

Offline PERSPOLIS

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Re: Iranian Navy Receives 3 Ghadir-Class Submarines
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2011, 01:28:21 AM »
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or this

Germany deprives Israeli Navy of power


04.11.2011

 


 
Construction of Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem has always provoked a mixed reaction in the West. This time, Israel's actions in this direction have been the subject of sharp criticism by Berlin. German Chancellor Angela Merkel does not hide her disappointment with the policies of Benjamin Netanyahu who does not intend to abandon the construction of settlements.
 


At the same time a major contract for the supply of the Israeli army with German submarines is in jeopardy. It is not ruled out that Berlin would purposely take that step in order to force Tel Aviv to abandon construction at the disputed territories. It should be noted that the Germans tried to similarly influence the Netanyahu government in the past.
 
Another story that has left an unpleasant aftertaste in the relations between the two countries took place in late 2010. Then the Israeli media have reprinted a dispatch from Berlin aimed at Washington and subsequently published on the website Wikileaks.

 The document said that the U.S. should link the issue of settlement construction with a decision on the report of Goldstone. The report itself was devoted to human rights violations in the Palestinian territories. Back in November of 2009 the issue of settlements was discussed at one of the official meetings of the Security Adviser to the Government of Germany Christoph Heusgen with the U.S. Ambassador Philip Murphy.




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Then Chancellor Angela Merkel has suggested the U.S. to "pass" Goldstone report in the UN Security Council in the event that Netanyahu refuses to stop building Jewish settlements. The attempt to "persuade" the Americans to act against their ally in the Middle East has failed. Yet, for the Israelis the disclosure of such information turned to be an unpleasant surprise.

 
The current scandal began with the publication in the newspaper "Yediot Ahronot" that reported that Germany has frozen the sale to Israel of "Dolphin" class submarines after Bibi decided to continue building settlements in Gilo (East Jerusalem).
 
The IDF Navy already has three German submarines supplied shortly after the Gulf War of 1991. They were built mostly with the German money. In 2006 it was agreed to supply another two submarines that were to be given to Israelis on concessional terms (financial assistance from the Federal Republic of Germany under the contract amounted to $135 million). It is through cooperation with Germany that the Israeli Army has greatly enhanced its naval potential.

 
If the transaction of the acquisition of German submarines is successfully completed, Israel will own most powerful submarine fleet in the region. In light of increasing military presence of Turkey and Iran in the Mediterranean, naval rearmament of IDF becomes even more significant.

The information about a possible disruption of military supplies that appeared in the national newspaper "Yediot Ahronot" and was reprinted by other publications could not remain unnoticed. Official sources were quick to refute it. "The relationship with the German government and Chancellor Merkel are warm and close. When any contradictions arise, they are resolved amicably," says "Cursor", referring to sources in Prime Minister's Office. The Office reminded that in the past, Israeli media hastily reported about a crisis in the relations with the United States, but later President Barack Obama said that the ties between the two countries were "closer than ever," the publication continued.


 
At first glance, the Germans had no particular interests in the Middle East. Unlike France that cannot abandon its neo-colonialist interests in Asia and Africa, Germany prefers to pursue a balanced policy, staying out of the most acute conflicts between East and West.
 
However, Israelis and Germans are traditionally tied by special relationship. After the Second World War Germany completely repented for the crimes against humanity and pleaded guilty to the Jews - the prisoners of concentration camps. Today it is no secret that the Germans have provided financial assistance to Israelis as moral damages for crimes committed by the Nazis during World War II. In addition, military and technical aid to Israel from Germany is quite consistent with the NATO doctrine aimed at curbing the authoritarian regimes fueled by the Soviet Union.

Under the new circumstances Berlin is not interested in the unconditional support of Tel Aviv. Not only the EU but also the U.S. is trying to hold back the Netanyahu government to prevent aggravation of the conflict over the Palestinian lands. Germany is trying to play its role in Europe's diplomatic games in the Middle East. Diplomats of the "Big Eight" believe that their main task is to bring Israelis and Palestinians to the negotiating table.
 
For the Palestinian side the continued construction of settlements is unacceptable. German Chancellor Angela Merkel, following her own logic, is trying to make it clear to Israel that the latter has more to lose by continuing to build in East Jerusalem. However, it is not yet clear how Netanyahu would react to these attempts of political pressure. 

At the official level the Israeli leadership does not recognize any differences with the Germans. However, the publication in such newspaper as "Yediot Ahronot" could not be a simple misunderstanding. It is also worth noting that the IDF press office refused to comment on the possible cancellation of the acquisition of German submarines.


 
Yuri Sosinsky-Semikhat
 
Pravda.Ru

Offline M-ATF

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Re: Iranian Navy Receives 3 Ghadir-Class Submarines
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2011, 09:39:05 AM »
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This seems like a super-submarine, for the waters of the persian gulf at least.

There are 17 of them in commission now officially, but could there be more in the IRGC navy hands that have not been made public?

with these three new submarines there are 18 of them, but I guess there are more than 18 Ghadirs.

Two years ago four Ghadir was delivered officially (There were images of three ghadir befor that delivery), last year another four Ghadirs were delivered officially in summer, some months after it one of commanders said more new Ghadirs will be delivered but no report and ceremony of delivery was announced after this announcement.
This year we have a report about delivery of four Ghadir in summer (but Iran didn't announce it officially on that time) and now delivery of more three Ghadir .
So it is possible to conclude that production capacity of them are around 7-8 per year and there has been another unannounced delivery of Ghadirs in autumn or winter of last year.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 09:42:51 AM by M-ATF »

Offline YMJ

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Re: Iranian Navy Receives 3 Ghadir-Class Submarines
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2011, 09:48:53 AM »
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with these three new submarines there are 18 of them, but I guess there are more than 18 Ghadirs.

Two years ago four Ghadir was delivered officially (There were images of three ghadir befor that delivery), last year another four Ghadirs were delivered officially in summer, some months after it one of commanders said more new Ghadirs will be delivered but no report and ceremony of delivery was announced after this announcement.
This year we have a report about delivery of four Ghadir in summer (but Iran didn't announce it officially on that time) and now delivery of more three Ghadir .
So it is possible to conclude that production capacity of them are around 7-8 per year and there has been another unannounced delivery of Ghadirs in autumn or winter of last year.

So all in all what are the total "unofficial" numbers of Ghadir subs?

Offline M-ATF

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Re: Iranian Navy Receives 3 Ghadir-Class Submarines
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2011, 04:47:05 AM »
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So all in all what are the total "unofficial" numbers of Ghadir subs?
Im not sure, maybe  21-22, If we consider another delivery of Ghadirs in winter or autumn last year.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 02:41:23 PM by M-ATF »

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Re: Iranian Navy Receives 3 Ghadir-Class Submarines
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2011, 05:03:42 AM »
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Im nor sure, maybe  21-22, If we consider another delivery of Ghadirs in winter or autumn last year.

On the surface, these vehicles seem well within IRI's manufacturing capability and capacity.  I won't be surprised if FAR more have been actually fielded.

Mamdali
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 03:35:43 PM by mamdali »
(Note:  I hope I'm being redundant by saying that given the state of misinformation and factless and unsupported content that is rife on the 'internet' today, naturally, I cannot endorse, believe, support, or accept any of links posted by me or others.  I personally find them interesting, however, as they open new perspectives for me.  I leave it to the reader to glean what they can or want from them).

Online kyuss

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Re: Iranian Navy Receives 3 Ghadir-Class Submarines
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2011, 10:29:56 AM »
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Admiral Bi Gham : 3 new submarines will increase navy capabilities Small | Large

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Re: Iranian Navy Receives 3 Ghadir-Class Submarines
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2011, 09:40:35 PM »
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Lots of examples what similar subs can do:
http://www.defence dot pk/forums/military-forum/142292-dutch-submarine-sinks-half-us-navy-ctf-1990-more.html


These Zwaardvis class submarines are still for sale in Malaysia, after all these years. Iran should buy them.


Offline shiageorgia

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Re: Iranian Navy Receives 3 Ghadir-Class Submarines
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2011, 02:03:02 PM »
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Is that possible to mount on these submarines the "superactivating" torpedoes of russian "Shkval" type?

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Re: Iranian Navy Receives 3 Ghadir-Class Submarines
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2011, 06:25:03 PM »
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Is that possible to mount on these submarines the "superactivating" torpedoes of russian "Shkval" type?

Yes.

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Re: Iranian Navy Receives 3 Ghadir-Class Submarines
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2011, 10:36:29 PM »
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no
"Il existe deux leviers pour faire bouger un homme, la peur et l’intérêt personnel."

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