Babak: Ich stated "Mh, as i stated bevor, dont forget the ages in which the Quran was written."
Oh. I see what you’re saying now.
You and I interpreted the word “written” differently.
I thought of “written” and “created” as two different things.
I interpreted his statement as, at the time of creation, God took into consideration (didn’t forget) the age when it would be revealed and then written down by Muhammad’s followers.
As you said, “…not written by Him.”
But I see what you’re saying.
So who wrote the Quran? And how could he understood god's words?
What we Muslims believe is that God created the Quran, then revealed it to Muhammad.
We believe that there were two means of revelation.
1. The angel Gabriel was sent to deliver some of the verses.
2. God revealed it directly to Muhammad’s ears.
Sometimes when Muhammad was receiving a revelation, some of his followers and companions would place their ear next to Muhammad’s ears and they heard a ringing sound.
Once when Muhammad was riding a camel and he began to receive a revelation, he became so heavy that the camel collapsed from the weight.
After the revelation was over, Muhammad would recite what he heard to his companions and they would write it on leather or whatever else they had, and they would memorize it (since it has a rhyme and rhythm and meter that is easy to memorize).
They would read and / or recite it back to him so that he could make sure that they got it right. Muhammad himself did not know how to write.
What I believe (not what most Muslims believe) is that at the time of revelation, God was changing the neurons in Muhammad’s brain to match what would have been changed if Muhammad had spent the time to memorize it.
When Muhammad was alive, some of his companions memorized the entire Quran (as many children today do so) and some people had the whole written form (like Muhammad’s cousin, Ali ibn Abu Talib).
After Muhammad died, the second or third Caliph (chief leader of the Muslims) was worried that future generations would criticize that there was no formal state approved official Quran to make sure that the Quran was exactly as it had been revealed.
So, he commissioned an official Quran by those who had memorized it and gathered it, and had most of the others destroyed.
…from Muslim point of view Quran is 1:1 God´s words…
Yes, but when I present the Quran to others, I do not begin with that premise.
I don’t assume the conclusion to be true in order to prove the conclusion.
That would be circular reasoning.
I use premises to try to prove that conclusion. I try not to use that conclusion as part of the argument to prove the conclusion.
For example, I don’t say that a certain verse must be an accurate reflection of science because it was written by God.
Rather, I say, this verse . . . (insert argument) . . . therefore it must have been created by God.
For example, I might say, the Quran contains descriptions of nature that science only described later, and the Quran makes no error. This evidence (among others) shows that the Quran is from God.
“ . . . Who came first? Quran or Human? . . . “
You’re asking about before and after, which implies time.
I'm making a big deal about this because I recently heard athiests argue that there could be no God to create the Big Bang since the Big Bang caused time, and so there was no time for God to exist within.
Actually, the proper concept of God is that God is not bound by time, but rather that time is bound by God, so that argument of the atheists falls apart.
Besides, if there was no time in existence for God to create the big bang, then there was also no time in existence for the infinitesimally small universe to exist to have a big bang.
So, how does that relate to your question of which came first, the human or the Quran?
To understand what I am about to say, remember that at a black hole, time stops. There is no time.
Likewise, “before” the big bang, our universe was infinitesimally small, and did not yet have time or space
I put the word “before” in quotes because there really could not be a “before” as time did not exist.
Based on the effort and time of my thinking and calculation, it happened in this order:
0. God has the idea of the universe, of free will, of humanity, and the words of the Quran.
1. God creates the laws of logic, the laws of mathematics, the laws of physics, the laws of cause and effect (causality), before and after, etc.
2. God creates the Big Bang which is the beginning of time-space and energy.
3. Humans are formed.
4. The Quran is revealed.
5. The Apocalypse occurs.
6. Time ends.
0 to infinity. God
The Quran says that God says “Be” and it is.
God does not create through causality, and that is why God could create cause and effect “when” there was no cause and effect (in the material sense of causality).
For humans like me and you, there is a steady progression through time. For example, there is 5:01 AM, then there is 5:02 AM, and so on.
Since the Quran teaches that God is unlimited and infinite, then God is not bound by time or space. Time is bound by God.
That means that God does not have to wait for 5:01 before he can reach 5:02 like us humans have to wait.
For God, 5:01 and 5:02 occur within God’s realm. He exists at both times (all times) simultaneously.
So, back to the question:
“What came first, the Quran, or humans?”
The Quran existed before time.
So, the Quran existed before humans, but the Quran also existed “before” there was a “before and after.”
That is because the “before” of the Quran’s existence is different than the “before” which we understand in our universe.