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Does anyone have a clue how the women were in Iran before Islam? What were their rights compared to men in that time and other things. I'd like to read how society was at that time(women). Since there are many Iranians who talks about how women were under persia and especially under the time of Cyrus the Great.   Does anyone have good sites or knows anything about this?


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It was probably better than the rest of the world (for its time). However, comparing the life people have now with then, would probably make that time look like a prison.

However, the life of a girl/woman now is considerably better now than what it was 30+ years ago. Iranian men were quite culturally strict... the number of 'pedar salar' is considerably less now... maybe almost statistically nonexistant in cities now.

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Does anyone have a clue how the women were in Iran before Islam? What were their rights compared to men in that time and other things. I'd like to read how society was at that time(women). Since there are many Iranians who talks about how women were under persia and especially under the time of Cyrus the Great.   Does anyone have good sites or knows anything about this?


the people who talk about pre islamic persia and praise women rights, dont actually have a true idea and no education and maybe used by pro shahi iranians, after iran became a muslim nation, persia may have little change of women rights, some things like having pre marital sex had become prohibited, keeping a slave girl would have been prohibited, and no rights for a wife in husbands heritage would have been amended, because if not mentioned by will, a wife is allowed to have certain percentage of property..

im also curious of pre islamic and pro islamic changes in iran..

It was probably better than the rest of the world (for its time).

the person doesnt even ask you to compare life style of woman of persia to all over the world :D

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Does anyone have a clue how the women were in Iran before Islam? What were their rights compared to men in that time and other things. I'd like to read how society was at that time(women). Since there are many Iranians who talks about how women were under persia and especially under the time of Cyrus the Great.   Does anyone have good sites or knows anything about this?



Comparing the rights held by women during that time and now is fundamentally flawed. The reason being is that many of the fundamentals or values held by people today were non existent or unrecognized at that time. It is more appropriate to compare these attributes with women of a same or close time period-- we're comparing two periods which are separated by more than a millennium.

As in other cultures at the time, the rights held by women were much inferior to those held by men. In fact, the only rights women did have were those not explicitly mentioned as being restricted in the law of the land. Also, in case of wrongs it was difficult if not impossible for women to seek aid from law, or from a court of law to address wrongs done to them simply because of the non-existence of these or the reasoning to bring them about. However they are often said to have enjoyed more rights than their other counterparts of antiquity for being allowed to inherit and partake in commerce. Also speaking of commerce, in pre-Islamic times, women were indeed a segment of the economic cycle as they too could be traded in a legal and official way.

Turning to your question, in direct comparison, Iranian women hold more rights now then they have ever held before in any time with these being enshrined in constitution and with being held as legal equals.       
"My Lord, grant me success in struggling during failure, in having patience in disappointment, in going alone, in Jihad without weapons, in working without pay, in making sacrifice in silence, in having religious belief in the world, in having ideology without popular traditions, in having faith without pretensions, non-conformity without immaturity, beauty without physical appearance, loneliness in the crowd, and loving without the beloved knowing about it. My Lord, You teach me how to live; I shall learn how to die."
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It was probably better than the rest of the world (for its time). However, comparing the life people have now with then, would probably make that time look like a prison.

However, the life of a girl/woman now is considerably better now than what it was 30+ years ago. Iranian men were quite culturally strict... the number of 'pedar salar' is considerably less now... maybe almost statistically nonexistant in cities now.

It's the residual effect of Reza Khan's great leadership.

Everything good in Iran is thanks to the Shah's father. These akhoonds just try to take credit for their achievements.

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It's the residual effect of Reza Khan's great leadership.

Everything good in Iran is thanks to the Shah's father. These akhoonds just try to take credit for their achievements.

Well, this doesn't change anything about his link to Britain. And how he stole so much lands in northern Iran, And how he Wasted Iranian money to build that railroad which was just to make British access to northern Iran easier. Not to link strategic cities together.
But yes , Unlike what Akhunds say, he modernized the country, and started a wave of reforms which we are seeing their results now in Islamic Republic. But all of these don't make an excuse for his dictatorship and being a puppet of UK.

And for you to know about Iranian women before Islam, Just know some facts that I'm sure you didn't know them:

1:They wore hejab!!!!!! yes. Most of historians believe that "Chador" which serves as an Islamic dress now, was once a Zoroastrian dress for women.
2:Although they wore Hejabs, They ad much more rights than Iranian women had and have after Islam. There are many sources that say there were "Women Warriors" and even "High ranking Officers" in Iranian Army Before Islam in some of the periods.
3:There were some women who commanded male workers during the construction of Persepolis's palace. All of them got high salaries and they had a one year "Morkhasi Zayeman" (Someone with better english please help translating this one) with salary.
4:The only Iranian Female leader was Pourandokht which was a Sassanid Queen Who rose to power after the death of his husband.

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^ Cyrus the Great was the first leader to give women Maternity leave.

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Well, this doesn't change anything about his link to Britain. And how he stole so much lands in northern Iran, And how he Wasted Iranian money to build that railroad which was just to make British access to northern Iran easier. Not to link strategic cities together.
But yes , Unlike what Akhunds say, he modernized the country, and started a wave of reforms which we are seeing their results now in Islamic Republic. But all of these don't make an excuse for his dictatorship and being a puppet of UK.

And for you to know about Iranian women before Islam, Just know some facts that I'm sure you didn't know them:

1:They wore hejab!!!!!! yes. Most of historians believe that "Chador" which serves as an Islamic dress now, was once a Zoroastrian dress for women.
2:Although they wore Hejabs, They ad much more rights than Iranian women had and have after Islam. There are many sources that say there were "Women Warriors" and even "High ranking Officers" in Iranian Army Before Islam in some of the periods.
3:There were some women who commanded male workers during the construction of Persepolis's palace. All of them got high salaries and they had a one year "Morkhasi Zayeman" (Someone with better english please help translating this one) with salary.
4:The only Iranian Female leader was Pourandokht which was a Sassanid Queen Who rose to power after the death of his husband.
JohnnyTurk was being sarcastic.

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^ Cyrus the Great was the first leader to give women Maternity leave.
Maternity leave from what? From house duties? Duties toward the king?

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Maternity leave from what? From house duties? Duties toward the king?

The first one is an oxymoron. They were given maternity leave from work. Employees were required by law to give their pregant women employees maternity leave. It's on the Cyrus Cylinder.

This was at a time where slavery was the norm.

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Ahh, I forgot about slavery. The reason I asked for what, is because as I said before, Iranian men have always been strict in this regard. It is culturally embedded. Even now most men in Iran do not want their wives/daughters to work. Though compared to 30-40 years ago, the men of now are much more relaxed in this regard.

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Ahh, I forgot about slavery. The reason I asked for what, is because as I said before, Iranian men have always been strict in this regard. It is culturally embedded. Even now most men in Iran do not want their wives/daughters to work. Though compared to 30-40 years ago, the men of now are much more relaxed in this regard.

That is true in Iran's contempory history, but back then women (in general, all over the world) were also required to work for the family to make a living, times were hard. Plus back in those days, if you look at the number of Female architects, engineers and even army commanders, you get the sense that women had a greater role in society

By the way when is said slavery, i meant slavery around the world, it was abolished in Iran.

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I don't know much about Iranian old history to comment about that, but I find it hard to believe. The further back we go in time, the harsher type of work there generally was. More than farming for the family it could not have been and that does not have maternity leave. Farm women are some of the toughest women. As for slavery back then, it existed according to the internet...: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Iran#Under_the_Sassanids

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That is true in Iran's contempory history, but back then women (in general, all over the world) were also required to work for the family to make a living, times were hard. Plus back in those days, if you look at the number of Female architects, engineers and even army commanders, you get the sense that women had a greater role in society

By the way when is said slavery, i meant slavery around the world, it was abolished in Iran.

Nigga please.

Slavery may have been abolished in print but you're a fool if you think that it actually worked out that way.

And I really doubt your claims about women being architects and generals and whatever. Care to cite your sources? And your source can't be "that guy from the Persian market in Westwood, California."

BTW: Iranian kings used to have harems. Woman power!

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Nigga please.

Slavery may have been abolished in print but you're a fool if you think that it actually worked out that way.

Slavery hadn't been uniformly abolished and moreover what constituted slavery is very different from modern readily-assumed perceptions of it. For instance in some cases, after arduous labour, if the benefactor had appreciated the service enough or had been benevolent enough to award a sum in return, a negation of slavery could have been assumed. Do note that this doesn't constitute a required or agreed upon salary and moreover the terms of payment were decided by one party. I'll point out that the above case does differentiate the slave labour with the hired artisans and free laborers. To sum briefly, whereas at a time when slavery was commonplace, Darius paying his workmen by an amount of his own accord would have been a height of gratitude, in present times it would be regarded as a form of near slavery.     

Quote
And I really doubt your claims about women being architects and generals and whatever. Care to cite your sources? And your source can't be "that guy from the Persian market in Westwood, California."

The real issue is that often people exaggerate the placement of women in important positions in times of antiquity in Iran as with other elements in the uber-utopian legend of it they often preach. It is a fact that such positions were held by them but it is important to note that these were exceptions and all were of high-birth-- this is primarily the reason why their record is present to us for at it's time, such a rank at the helm of a women was an event in history.

EDIT:
Anyhow, to cite examples for you. As recently as 2004 a tomb was uncovered near Tabriz of a women armed as a warrior. It was dated to 1AD approximately. I could point to other ones but there is a dispute regarding some names being put as Scythian, Parthian, Sarmatians and so forth though they are regarded as being Iranic. There is Amage, the  Sauromatae (Scythian female warriors; precursor to the 'Amazons'), Tomyris, etc...
Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 06:00:46 PM by Ruhollah

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rouz
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Iranian women warriors..







present day nomad...



imo things are better now with them unarmed.

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Barberry,

To answer your question re Womens rights in pre Islamic Iran I would say firstly do not listen too much to people who claim that pre Islamic Iran was more equitable in providing individual rights to men or women they do not know what they're talking about.  The system employed before the fall of the Sassanids was a Feudalist system whereby a son had to adopt his fathers profession even if his father was a soldier or even if his father was a blacksmith or even if his father was the garbage cleaner and so on.  Aristocratic/monarchical systems will never weigh up in regards to the rights that Islam grants individuals.  Islam was truly the first system which didn't care what colour you are, your family lineage or what class you represent as for the question of sex each gender has its own rights, for example a woman has the right to be paid for in full by her husband and keep any money she earns on the side and the man has the right to be the leader of the household and for example know where the women goes and who she befriends.  If you have any other questions, ask - it is always good to ask because that is one of the best ways that knowledge can be spread about Islam.

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Nigga please.

Slavery may have been abolished in print but you're a fool if you think that it actually worked out that way.

And I really doubt your claims about women being architects and generals and whatever. Care to cite your sources? And your source can't be "that guy from the Persian market in Westwood, California."

BTW: Iranian kings used to have harems. Woman power!

ROFL well said.

BTW the harems helped provide to the decline of power and central structure several times.

Im not really biased when it comes to the pre or after Islamic Iran. I just think we should be wise about the information we receive.

Just remember that slavery is still not abolished worldwide, its just a new way of it. And worldwide women don't necessary have better rights than before, they are treated differently and are being dealt with in a new fashion. It all falls down to how you look at it.

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Everything in this world is relative, JohnnyTurk. Fact is, back then Iranian women had plenty of rights, more so than anywhere else in the world, the same cannot be said now.


I don't think anyone could disagree with me when i say we need to give our women more rights.
Last Edit: November 10, 2010, 12:53:19 AM by Shirazi

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Women's rights were confined to their 'pardeh' which even concealed their faces. These 'zina the warrior princess' pictures are nice, and they might be applicable at some periods of pre-islamic history, but that is only because the kingship found use in sending women of the lower caste to the battlefield first. Like north africans sent their women to fight the french, leaving the strongest of men to resist last. Women lived in tribal areas, and the feudal system did not allow men to be equal to men, let alone women equal to men. Also, to see women without her pardeh was typical for people lower in the hierarchy.

Also, remember that "Iran" is not a country that was known to be one, united land. It was a vast land that streched to places the inhabitants had no knowledge of. Hunting and gathering units lived secluded with basic survival mechanisms. The Sassanian and Achaemenid systems were autocratic, but also had no sophisticated organizational means to enforce their theocratic laws to other lands, disorganization allowed a lot of what was not approved to be seen today as something 'approved' by the status quo. (We persians gave women rights, they were free like you and me today or even beyond etc. nonsense).

If this site had an upload pictures option I can illustrate some real, historic pre-islamic pictures of how women dressed and lived, from both archeology and historic illustrations.



Last Edit: November 10, 2010, 02:10:13 AM by Bolbol

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Does relativity mean anything to you?

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Wait a minute, I've seen photographs of Iranian women soldiers and police in hijab. I was very proud of them.

In the Avesta is states that women should be obedient to their husbands.

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Everything in this world is relative, JohnnyTurk. Fact is, back then Iranian women had plenty of rights, more so than anywhere else in the world, the same cannot be said now.


I don't think anyone could disagree with me when i say we need to give our women more rights.


I disagree with you. What rights do Iranian women need more of, exactly? It all depends on how you want your society formed, don't it?

Bare in mind Western (hijacked) philosophies about women are not as successful as once believed even here anymore. Just recently some Norwegian science study showed majority of Norwegian men think equality through laws and force is negative and is harmful for man/woman and family relations. The fact that Norway have one of the worst family stability in the world could be directly intervened to these long-term policies. Let me remind you Norway is in the front-seat when it comes to equality of gender and after several decades, the majority of people are growing tired of these policies... I personally think equality of genders in theory sounds good but in reality is destroying the society from within.

Btw i believe bolbol have a point and its related to the point ive been trying to state in this topic: pre-Islamic and ancient Iran is not quite what some people believe it to be. But i have to disagree on your point about religious unity and enforcement bolbol... From what we read of western writers Iran during both Achaemenid and Sassanian dynasties were largely influencing for its citizens and abroad in religious and other influence, and they used different organized methods to spread it. I believe they were rather successfull as well, as its stated by writers and by comparing technology and other things, traces of this civilization can be found in any culture of human beings even today.
Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 07:43:43 PM by maiser

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I disagree with you. What rights do Iranian women need more of, exactly? It all depends on how you want your society formed, don't it?

Bare in mind Western (hijacked) philosophies about women are not as successful as once believed even here anymore. Just recently some Norwegian science study showed majority of Norwegian men think equality through laws and force is negative and is harmful for man/woman and family relations. The fact that Norway have one of the worst family stability in the world could be directly intervened to these long-term policies. Let me remind you Norway is in the front-seat when it comes to equality of gender and after several decades, the majority of people are growing tired of these policies... I personally think equality of genders in theory sounds good but in reality is destroying the society from within.

Btw i believe bolbol have a point and its related to the point ive been trying to state in this topic: pre-Islamic and ancient Iran is not quite what some people believe it to be. But i have to disagree on your point about religious unity and enforcement bolbol... From what we read of western writers Iran during both Achaemenid and Sassanian dynasties were largely influencing for its citizens and abroad in religious and other influence, and they used different organized methods to spread it. I believe they were rather successfull as well, as its stated by writers and by comparing technology and other things, traces of this civilization can be found in any culture of human beings even today.

Care to elaborate on how exactly Norwegians are sick of gender equality? There is a debate going on whether or not affirmative action is the way to go or if it is counter productive, but nothing along the lines of what you describe. You should also be aware that people can have different roles in society and still be equal.

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Men and women are equal in terms of human value, but they're definitely not the same, nor do they, or are they capable of fully fulfilling each others roles. Western (especially) feminists do fight for equal to the point of x=y (if you get what I mean), this has turned them into shemales. In fact, some are so radical, that they cut their hairs short and protest the term "woman", because it contains "man" in it. I guess they would be happy with farsi, since we do not have male/female words at all, nor do we refer to anyone by using their gender in the sentence, as is common in every language I know of. Farsi is one of the very few gender neutral languages.

Anyway, these feminists have become ugly copies of men... they have gone so far in their quest... that they have not realized that they did what they hate most... they've programmed themselves to be men.... can't think of anything more ugly than a shemale... :lol:

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