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Originally the Fajr scheduled for launch in the last summer but there was some problems during the satellite's testing.


Did they already test the Simorgh? Do you think they will launch it the first time with a satellite?


Practically its already tested, because most probably the Simorgh will be very similar of the North Korean Unha 2.



Iranian engineers have already extracted everything Safir and its variations have to offer.



Absolutely true, if you watching the first footage of PRESSTV, you can see the rocket is ascending very slowly, I think this rocket is operating at 100% capacity.  Suspiciously all subsequent footage shown on various TVs are speeded up some.


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Practically its already tested, because most probably the Simorgh will be very similar of the North Korean Unha 2.

We have all seen the engine for Simourgh which is a combo of four Scud missile engines. But what information do we have that prompts you to say that the N. Korean version is the exact engine?


Catsoo

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We have all seen the engine for Simourgh which is a combo of four Scud missile engines. But what information do we have that prompts you to say that the N. Korean version is the exact engine?


Catsoo


Because Iran and NK have common building blocks. The Shahab 3 is equal the NK No-dong.  This site has the same conclusions: http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Diverse/Unha-2/index.htm


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Thanks Chacko! Scud engines are plenty in Iran and N. Korea. I can see the logic why both countries opted for using  such engines to create a more powerful SLV, very efficient indeed!


catsoo

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Because Iran and NK have common building blocks. The Shahab 3 is equal the NK No-dong.  This site has the same conclusions: http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Diverse/Unha-2/index.htm




This is his speculations. He thinks that Simorgh is exactly an Unha-2. I don't think so because Unha-2 uses the engine of BM-25 "Musudan" as it's second stage. While Simorgh according to mockups uses a Shahab-3/Nodong engine. We must wait to see if Simorgh is an Unha-2 copy or is based on it.

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I agree with Aspahbod,
I think Iran and N.K. follows independent space program. Maybe they share some technologies but I think total of projects are independent.
You see N.K. hasn't could to put any satellite into orbit till now despite their first launch was 10 years before Iranians.
As I know Unha-2 hasn't any successful launch till now.

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We have all seen the engine for Simourgh which is a combo of four Scud missile engines. But what information do we have that prompts you to say that the N. Korean version is the exact engine?


Catsoo

Catsoo,
The Simorgh first stage is powered by four Nodong/Shahab-3 engines, which were designed by Isayev (Russian) in the 1950s. They are twice as powerful as the Scud (Isayev S5.) engine.  Each Shahab-3 engine produces 28.3 tons of thrust at sea level, and 31.6 tons in vacuum; I can provide more details if necessary, as I the engineers in Russia familiar with thee engine's origins and technical parameters. And while Iran's engineers are very capable, they do not have the technical wherewithal to enhance this engine to generate the thrust values quoted by officials.  If they had such capabilities, they would have also designed one large turbopump to feed the four engines; in the mock up unveiled in February 2010, each engine was supplied with its own pump.

Having said this, it will be quite a feat if the Simorgh is launched successfully.

Of most interest will be the make-up of the second stage.  Will it be similar to that used  on Safir, powered by the steering engines from the Russian R-27 (or other Makayev design bureau missile), or will it use an R-27 itself, as North Korea did with the Unha-2?  If the latter, Iran will have a powerful satellite launcher, and a possible basis for a long-range missile with the capacity to target all of Europe if developed and fielded as a ballistic missile.  The latter would also confirm the Wikileaked diplomatic cable that quoted American officials telling their Russia counterparts that Iran had received the "BM-25" which is based on the R-27, and was seen in a North Korean parade in October 2010.  US officials call the North Korean version of the missile, "Musudan".
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.

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I agree with Aspahbod,
I think Iran and N.K. follows independent space program. Maybe they share some technologies but I think total of projects are independent.
You see N.K. hasn't could to put any satellite into orbit till now despite their first launch was 10 years before Iranians.
As I know Unha-2 hasn't any successful launch till now.


I agree, the two missile programs are parted in the last few years, the Iranian know-how of missile designing developed so much there is no need foreign assistance any more. However if you have the same problems (building a larger rocket economically) the solutions can be the same for both countries.

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Because Iran and NK have common building blocks. The Shahab 3 is equal the NK No-dong.  This site has the same conclusions: http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Diverse/Unha-2/index.htm


Be careful referencing Brugge's information.  He has done a remarkable job collecting photographs and recording historical developments.  But he is not technical and there are many mistakes in his technical assessments.  For example, Russia never built a Scud engine that uses UDMH as a fuel.  There are many other minor (and major) technical errors.

Nonetheless, the website is very useful and I hope he continues to update it regularly.

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Catsoo,
The Simorgh first stage is powered by four Nodong/Shahab-3 engines, which were designed by Isayev (Russian) in the 1950s. They are twice as powerful as the Scud (Isayev S5.) engine.  Each Shahab-3 engine produces 28.3 tons of thrust at sea level, and 31.6 tons in vacuum; I can provide more details if necessary, as I the engineers in Russia familiar with thee engine's origins and technical parameters. And while Iran's engineers are very capable, they do not have the technical wherewithal to enhance this engine to generate the thrust values quoted by officials.  If they had such capabilities, they would have also designed one large turbopump to feed the four engines; in the mock up unveiled in February 2010, each engine was supplied with its own pump.

Having said this, it will be quite a feat if the Simorgh is launched successfully.
As I said before too, Thrust of Safir-1B engine is 37 tons compared to 32 tons of Safir-1A, Iranian officials say they could reach to this increase in thrust (and impulse) due to a new unique fuel that has been invented by Iran and is used for the first time in the world. They also says they have made some other changes on Safir-1B compared to Safir-1A.
Surely they will use such fuel and modifications on Simorgh too.


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so the Simorgh is a completely new design than Safir, Right?

If i remember correctly they first launched Safir with a sounding instrument on board. I think they used this for testing the platform. I cannt really imagine that they will launch a satellite in the first launch...

As I know, engine of first stage of first prototype of Simorgh is cluster of four Safir engine.

...

I guess second stage of both Safir and Simorgh is the same.
Some people believes second stage of Simorgh is slightly longer (based on Image analysis of Safir image and Simorgh mock-up image and comparison of them)
I should correct my statements , according to Mashreghnews, this is specifications of Simorgh:
Length : 25.974 m
First Stage Diameter: 2.4 m
Second Stage Diameter: 1.5
Length of Second Stage: 8.158 m
Thrust of First Stage: 142 ton
Thrust of Second Stage: .7.2 tons

Diameter of Safir is 1.25 m (first and second), So by comparison of it with diameter of second stage of Simorgh, it is possible to conclude that second stage of Simorgh is different than second stage of Safir. Second stage of Simorgh produces 7.2 tons compared to 3.4 tons of second stage of Safir.
Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 05:34:34 PM by M-ATF

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Lieutenant General (سپهبد)
So, we see another unreliable announced news . It is this sort of reporting that not only plays in the hands of Iran's enemies but also imbeds uncertainty and lack of trust among Iranians.

Fajr will not be launched "by Feb. 11" rather next Persian year!



Catsoo

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To watch the courageous Afghan freedom fighters battle modern arsenals with simple hand held weapons is a inspiration to those who love freedom. Their courage teaches us a great lesson-- that there are things in this world worth defending !!!

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So, we see another unreliable announced news . It is this sort of reporting that not only plays in the hands of Iran's enemies but also imbeds uncertainty and lack of trust among Iranians.
Fajr will not be launched "by Feb. 11" rather next Persian year!
Catsoo

Such incorrect information being circulated is quite common for most space programmes.   The reason is that journalists reporting other people's statements might misunderstand and thus misrepresent what was actually said.

I was on the receiving end of such an event in 1999.   In July 1999 I was doing an interview about the anniversary of the Apollo 11 manned lunar landing and I was asked when we would return to the Moon.   I said that within the next five years China was expected to launch its first manned space mission (it was actually in October 2003) and I expected that they would be walking on the Moon around the time of the 50th anniversary of Apollo 11 - that is, in 2019.   Later that day a friend told me that a space philately web site was reporting that China would be flying a manned mission to the Moon within five years!   Oh well .........

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Such incorrect information being circulated is quite common for most space programmes.   The reason is that journalists reporting other people's statements might misunderstand and thus misrepresent what was actually said.

In this case, the announcements were by officials.


Catsoo

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In this case, the announcements were by officials.


Catsoo
Didn't M-ATF say that they mentioned on TV that it was delayed due to bad weather? Right now it's extremely cold and freezing/snowing in most of Iran.

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Didn't M-ATF say that they mentioned on TV that it was delayed due to bad weather? Right now it's extremely cold and freezing/snowing in most of Iran.

Well, we are talking about a major announcement to take place just a few days after. Surely Iran's weather must have been known in advance especially as crucial as this aspect is to launch of this class of rockets. Sorry Pasdar, but things don't add up. This sort of informing the public is not constructive. Just for another bad example, the public preview of IR.AN-140N was also announced to be done within the ten day Fajr celebrations. Have you seen it? Iran is very much under the microscope everyday in the world, such sub-standard publicity do not work for Iran and Iranians expecially at very crucial times like today.


Catsoo

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The Simorgh first stage is powered by four Nodong/Shahab-3 engines, which were designed by Isayev (Russian) in the 1950s. They are twice as powerful as the Scud (Isayev S5.) engine.  Each Shahab-3 engine produces 28.3 tons of thrust at sea level, and 31.6 tons in vacuum; I can provide more details if necessary, as I the engineers in Russia familiar with thee engine's origins and technical parameters. And while Iran's engineers are very capable, they do not have the technical wherewithal to enhance this engine to generate the thrust values quoted by officials.  If they had such capabilities, they would have also designed one large turbopump to feed the four engines; in the mock up unveiled in February 2010, each engine was supplied with its own pump.

Having said this, it will be quite a feat if the Simorgh is launched successfully.

Of most interest will be the make-up of the second stage.  Will it be similar to that used  on Safir, powered by the steering engines from the Russian R-27 (or other Makayev design bureau missile), or will it use an R-27 itself, as North Korea did with the Unha-2?  If the latter, Iran will have a powerful satellite launcher, and a possible basis for a long-range missile with the capacity to target all of Europe if developed and fielded as a ballistic missile.  The latter would also confirm the Wikileaked diplomatic cable that quoted American officials telling their Russia counterparts that Iran had received the "BM-25" which is based on the R-27, and was seen in a North Korean parade in October 2010.  US officials call the North Korean version of the missile, "Musudan".

Sobaka

I like your writing but as you know very well it took russia a bit of time to design clusters that fed all the turbo pumps with a single feed. Iran is trying to build on what it already has tested and knows best. So 4 feeds to 4 turbo pumps and 4 pump exhausts is what they have for now.  From the recent awards that were given to iranian scientists i noticed one was awarded for cluster ignition so I guess they have figured how to ignite cluster of engines without an explosion.  I'm amazed if they got it figured out that fast considering all that can go wrong if one fires while the other has fumes in the engine but has not fired, or firing out of sequence can tip the rocket prior to launch, etc. Also regarding the increase thrust Iran is claiming improved burning and energy extraction from changes to fuel and not the design. However this is very difficult since changes in fuel can create vortex flow at the injection plate that can cause explosions. But they appear to have done it since they are obviously getting more thrust out of this old but proven design. Also Iran's production of a ten ton solid booster (sejil) which took china until 1990's shows that their engineers are much better than we give them credit.

Still I enjoyed  your comments very much :)
Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 05:51:58 AM by wisdom

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http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/slbm/jl-1.htm

JL-1 [CSS-N-3]
The JL-1 [CSS-N-3] is a two-stage solid-propellant submarine-launched ballistic missile deployed on the Type-092 Xia class submarines. The Ju Lang-1 [or "Giant Wave-1"] missile is a sea-based variant of the land-based ground-mobile DF-21. JL-1 is ejected from a submerged submarine with the first-stage engine igniting after the missile has emerged from the water. The first successful test of the 1.4m-diameter solid-rocket engine for the JL-1 came in early 1978. The first test launch of the two stage CSS-NX-3 missile took place on 30 April, 1982 from submerged pontoon near Huludao (Yellow Sea). The first successful launch of the JL-1 was achieved on 12 October 1982, from a Golf Class trials submarine, marking a major milestone in a development program that had been initiated in March 1967. The second was launched on 12 October 1982 . The first firing from Xia was in 1985 and was unsuccessful and it was not until 27 September 1988 that a satisfactory launch took place. Although the missile put to sea as early as 1983, it did not become fully operational until the successful test firing from submerged Xia in September 1988.
Iran Khodro largest auto maker in larger middle east

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWwHIPoQdw8&list=UUMF4vfECnuAPAfW0s6lMpyg&index=1&feature=plcp

<a href="http://www.quickiqtest.net" title="IQ Test"><img src="http://www.quickiqtest.net/graphic/badges/sf114.gif" width="150" height="75" alt="IQ Test" border="0"></a><br>QuickIQTest.net - <a title="Quick IQ Test" href="http://www.quickiqtest.net">IQ Test</a>

this is the fixed video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn-T-5k0_4E&list=UUMF4vfECnuAPAfW0s6lMpyg&index=1

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http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/slbm/jl-1.htm

JL-1 [CSS-N-3]
The JL-1 [CSS-N-3] is a two-stage solid-propellant submarine-launched ballistic missile deployed on the Type-092 Xia class submarines. The Ju Lang-1 [or "Giant Wave-1"] missile is a sea-based variant of the land-based ground-mobile DF-21. JL-1 is ejected from a submerged submarine with the first-stage engine igniting after the missile has emerged from the water. The first successful test of the 1.4m-diameter solid-rocket engine for the JL-1 came in early 1978. The first test launch of the two stage CSS-NX-3 missile took place on 30 April, 1982 from submerged pontoon near Huludao (Yellow Sea). The first successful launch of the JL-1 was achieved on 12 October 1982, from a Golf Class trials submarine, marking a major milestone in a development program that had been initiated in March 1967. The second was launched on 12 October 1982 . The first firing from Xia was in 1985 and was unsuccessful and it was not until 27 September 1988 that a satisfactory launch took place. Although the missile put to sea as early as 1983, it did not become fully operational until the successful test firing from submerged Xia in September 1988.

Aryana

I don't know if you were trying to prove my point or argue with me, but I assume it was to agree since your post perfectly proves my point. The PLA developed DF-21 as the basis of all it's solid rocket boosters from land, submarine and even it's latest ballistic aircraft carrier killer the DF-21D. It took them from 1967 to 1985 to get this solid booster right. And it had a 1800 km range in 1985 it was not until future upgrades that was put into mass production by the 1990's. A 30 year development and that was without any sanctions and lots of help on and off from outside including USSR.  Iran came up with a 2000 km solid booster Sajil in 10 years...impressive

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ru
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Wisdom, you are spot on with your comment.  I have no doubts that Iran has the technical and industrial capacity to eventually create an intermediate range missile (i.e. greater than 3500km) if Tehran decides one is needed.  But it will take time.  Evolving from the 13 ton Sajjil first stage motor to a 20+ ton motor typically requires 8-10 years.  Aryana's post shows how long it took China to develop the JL-1 (and the land-based version, DF-21).  France needed more than 10 years to graduate from the M2/20 to the M-4.  India and Russia were able to move faster, but factors not present in Iran today impacted those cases.  It is therefore reasonable to expect Iran to develop new capabilities along a similar time frame.  Once the Sajjil becomes operational, it will be at least 5 if not 8-10 years before a 4000-5000km solid-propellant missile is made combat ready.  I could be wrong; Iran might be more capable that all those that came before it.  But I doubt it.

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It is therefore reasonable to expect Iran to develop new capabilities along a similar time frame. 

I don't agree with this. I think Iran would be able to do it much much faster than people expect. This is not just me being optimistic, but i'm taking into account the geniuses that spring up in Iran due to the genetic diversity present, the pressure Iran is under and the fact that the times have changed tremendously. Comparing 1990 to 2001 is night and day, let alone 1990 compared to 2012.
Ya Ali, molla Ali (as)

"There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" - Imam Ali (as)

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Nowadays gaining and acquiring knowledge is becoming easier than before... There is a huge amount of literature out there ... knowledge is pretty open to everyone ... you design, simulate and redesign in a very short time .. hours in some cases ... these things were simply not possible before the 90s ... you can get machinery that will do you nearly everything you want

what Iran sometime misses is the know-how in some fields.. if they want to acquire this by testing and experimenting it takes time for sure ... but Iran is able to get this know-how from different sources.. legal and illegal ... this makes the course of developments even faster...

The way is not easy.. big projects such as fighters or engines ect .. need not only know how and knowledge.. but a big number of people, resources and strong organization ... and time ...

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I don't agree with this. I think Iran would be able to do it much much faster than people expect. This is not just me being optimistic, but i'm taking into account the geniuses that spring up in Iran due to the genetic diversity present, the pressure Iran is under and the fact that the times have changed tremendously. Comparing 1990 to 2001 is night and day, let alone 1990 compared to 2012.

YMJ, Please tell me why you are so optimistic.  Facts are stubborn things, and the fact is that Iran's development of the Nazeats, Zelzal, Fateh-110A and then Sajjil follow a pattern very similar to those seen in other countries, including France, China and India.  The only difference is that Iran's missile capabilities have evolved on a slightly longer time scale, which is understandable given the sanctions, etc.  Moreover, development of the Sajjil has stalled; only one flight test in the past two years, a clear indicator of either developmental problems or inadequate access to raw materials.  I suspect both factors are at play here. [Recall the the UN Panel of Experts for Iran sanctions reported the interception of ammonium perchlorate and aluminum powder destined for Iran; these are key propellant components.]   

Iran has developed exceptional skills over the past two decades and should rightfully view their successes with pride.  But there is no evidence to suggest that Iran is able to develop missile technologies and capabilities at a rate not seen elsewhere.  Show me evidence of accelerated missile development by Iran and I will humbly readjust my estimates.

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  Moreover, development of the Sajjil has stalled; only one flight test in the past two years, a clear indicator of either developmental problems or inadequate access to raw materials.  I suspect both factors are at play here. [Recall the the UN Panel of Experts for Iran sanctions reported the interception of ammonium perchlorate and aluminum powder destined for Iran; these are key propellant components.]   

Iran has officially announced that has mass produced Sejil BM, They also showed numbers of Sejil on its launchers in parades (four in 2010 parade) .
I think there are other unannounced tests like this too :
http://www.iranmilitaryforum.net/missiles-and-rockets/video-of-test-firing-of-sejil-missile-into-india-ocean/



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