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Poll

Who will first send astronauts into orbit? How many seats will the spacecraft have?

IRI, 1 seat
8 (61.5%)
IRI, 2 seats
3 (23.1%)
IRI, more than 2 seats
1 (7.7%)
Korea, 1 seat
1 (7.7%)
Korea, 2 seats
0 (0%)
Korea, more than 2 seats
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 13

Author Topic: Hwasong-14/Safir-X MIRV FOB ICBM/SLV (Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 03:08:49 )  (Read 2040 times)

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Offline Sangeshkan_Cave

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Hwasong-14/Safir-X "Super Proton Baekdusan" MIRV FOB ICBM/SLV

Quote
U. S. and South Korean intelligence analysts believe the new facility is directly related to testing North Korea’s new 6,200 mi. range 130 ft. tall [Hwasong-14/Safir-X]“Satan” long range ICBM and a related North Korean/Iranian space launch booster with up to six engines clustered in the first stage.

Iran and possibly North Korea plan to use the large new space launch booster to send Iranian and North Korean astronauts into space.


According to Charles P. Vick at Global Security.org, some analysts believe North Korea hopes to turn the [Hwasong-14/Safir-X ]Satan into a semi-mobile ICBM for concealment in caves etc. That would be very hard to do with such a large liquid fueled rocket he notes .Evident in images of the launch tower are service levels built for the much wider and taller Satan ICBM and space launch vehicles. The entire upper servicing level, with a large circular opening in the floor, extends well above the top of the Unha-3/TD-2 on the pad.

South Korean intelligence analysts believe that North Korea has built about 20 of the Unha-3 vehicles, some of which are to be shipped to Iran where they would be launched as Iranian “Simorgh” ballistic missiles initially from the new Semnan launch site east of Tehran.

The Semnan launch facility itself duplicates the new Tongchang-ri launch site to be used for the first time this week. The jointly developed Semnan launch site is further evidence of direct North Korean, Iranian cooperation.

Intelligence and trade analysts agree that North Korea routinely shares rocket engine, rocket stage, design engineering and rocket guidance systems and software with Iran.

There has been so much sharing of ballistic missile parts and shipments by air, sometimes through third party airports, like Beijing’s, that the United Nations commissioned a major report on this illegal trade. In addition to being a transfer point, many of the missile parts acquired by North Korea then shipped to Iran were originally built in China.  The release of the finished UN report is being blocked, not surprisingly, by China.

There are other examples of this cooperation, including some that could have a direct bearing on Iranian / North Korean battle strategy. Examples include:

—The Unha-3/TD-2 upper stage: The third stage of the North Korean rocket was developed in Iran and uses liquid propellants.

Coordinated missile launches: Both North Korea and Iran have demonstrated the ability to conduct coordinated ballistic missile launch operations if they ever choose to attack at the same time, according to U. S. Army Lt. Gen. Patrick J. O’Reilly, Director for the Missile Defense Agency.

Coordinated sensor jamming: Both countries have also demonstrated the know-how to launch barrage attacks to overwhelm missile detection sensors confusing the sensors on the types of missiles being launched and their targets.

Duplicate strike tactics: An additional concern is North Korea’s and Iran’s repeated demonstration of salvo launches, indicating large ballistic missile raid sizes that must be considered by the U. S. in developing it ballistic missile defense capabilities, Pentagon officials told the Strategic Forces Subcommittee of the House Armed Services Committee.

Nuclear weapons development: North Korea and Iran are collaborating on nuclear test results and some analysts believe parts of a 2010 North Korean test or tests were done specifically for Iran. There are also reports that North Korea is preparing for a nuclear test in 2012.


Source
http://www.americaspace.org/?p=17120

Quote
Pictures recently seen on display at the Three Revolutions Museum’s space exhibit in Pyongyang may provide another clue to the mysterious rocket’s existence and characteristics. Figure 5 shows a photograph of an artist’s concept of a large satellite launch vehicle and gantry tower. The rocket and gantry portrayed in this picture differ from the Taepodong-1 launched in 1998 and the Unha rocket tested in 2009 and soon to be launched this week. But is this just another piece of propaganda or a representation of a future large DPRK space launch vehicle?
 
It’s impossible to say for sure. The space exhibit is full of false or misleading claims, including that the two satellites launched during previous tests achieved orbit, which they did not. Another photo shows a Chinese satellite that the North Koreans claim as one of their own. On the other hand, both launch videos and models of earlier rocket tests are accurate.

Assume for a moment, then, that the photo—propaganda though it may be—bares some resemblance to a future large North Korean rocket. The depiction of the confirmed gantry at Sohae doesn’t look quite the same, but let’s also assume that the dimensions are close. Given our detailed knowledge of the Sohae gantry from commercial satellite imagery, and now ground photos, the rocket in the picture can be roughly scaled to obtain its dimensions: about 38 to 40 meters long and 3.5 to 4 meters in diameter. The dimensions are similar to the large rocket reported by the press, the height of the Sohae gantry, and the diameter of the hole in the mobile test pad.
 
To carry this analysis one step further, a rocket of this size would be able to comfortably mount inside its first stage nine engines used by the Nodong medium-range missile—more than twice as many as the Unha-3 first stage.  The second stage looks to be 2.5 meters in diameter, similar to the Unha first stage, and could thus mount four engines.  The two stages alone would give the next-generation North Korean rocket nearly 450 tons of thrust, much more than the current generation of North Korean rockets and more than enough to power a highly capable ICBM or space-launch vehicle.
 
Figure 5. Artist’s concept of a possible larger new North Korean rocket.

Source
http://38north.org/2012/04/nhansenfp041112/

Quote
Hwasong-14 MIRV ICBM

2012.04.28 19:06:50

Hwasong-14 ICBM has a 14,000 km range, with Multiple warheads (MIRV) payload.

Hwasong-13 and Hwasong-14 ICBMs are deployed in deep tunnels of North Hamgyong Mountains at more than 2000 meters high, making them difficult to detect, as the Hwasong-13 is mounted on TELs.

The 10,700 km flight distance to Washington DC requires only 30 minutes for the 800 kiloton warheads. The explosion radius is 13 km.
 
Source
http://nodong.org/bbs/1057002

Quote
Super Baekdusan FOB ICBM

2012/04/28 [19:59] 

The 400-ton "Super Proton Baekdusan" ICBM should have infinite-range strike capabilities, as a fractional-orbit missile (FOBS)  Such a missile provides some advantages over a conventional ICBM. The range is limited only by the parameters of the orbit that the re-entry vehicle has been placed into, and the re-entry vehicle may come from either direction.

After launch it would go into a low Earth orbit and would then de-orbit for an attack. It had no range limit and the orbital flight path would not reveal the target location. This would allow a path to North America over the South Pole, hitting targets from the south, [thus the polar launch test conducted by Korea and Iran in 13 April 2012] which is the opposite direction from which NORAD early warning systems are oriented.


Comparative range of various ICBMs, with Korea's new FOB

Source
http://www.hinews.asia/sub_read.html?uid=1783&section=sc1

Hwasong-15, Hwasong-16 and Hwasong-17 ICBMs/SLVs
Quote
2012.04.27 02:23:57

그런데 이번 열병식에 나온 것이《화성13》호가 400톤급 토풀(Topol) M-25라니...더 무서운 것은 화성14호 15호, 16호, 17호 등 그 이상의 신형대륙간탄도미사일(ICBM)도 이미 실전에 배치되었지만 아직 아무에게도 공개하지 않았다는 사실이다.

But this time only the Hwasong-13 (Mars-13) ICBM is publicly displayed on parade, while the Hwasong-14 currently under development and even more powerful and more frightening Hwasong-15, Hwasong-16 and Hwasong-17 ICBMs have not been disclosed to anyone...

Source
http://www.minjok.com/news/news_view.php?code=37134


Sangeshkan_Cave's commentary

Excellent developments, with the advent of these most dreaded superweapons, the Great Shaitan will have no other choice but to entirely rethink its foreign hegemonic policy of tyranny toward the Asian and Muslim world, by then let them tremble in fear and beg for our mercy to spare their miserable lives!  :salute:
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 03:12:36 AM by Sangeshkan_Cave »

Online M-ATF

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Unha-4/Simorgh-2
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2012, 10:00:04 PM »
+1
Quote
—The Unha-3/TD-2 upper stage: The third stage of the North Korean rocket was developed in Iran and uses liquid propellants.

This part is interesting to me and is consistent with what I have read about second stage of Safir in Persian language sources.
Around two years ago an exhibition was held in Sharif university. One of the visitors of that exhibition wrote a good report about that exhibition and posted the photos of it too.

According to his report engine of first stage of Safir SLV has been engine of a ballistic missile (we know it too) that Iran has reverse engineered it and has built different generations of it.

But he says unlike the engine of first stage , engine of second stage has been built by a engineering (designing) work not a reverse engineering work.
He says " This engine is built in "Space Research Institute". Before Iranians, scientists of South Korea (I don't know does he really mean South Korea or not he has meant North Korea?) had tried to build this engine 7 times but each time after just 3 seconds the engine is exploded. Iranian young scientists try to build this engine 5 times and the engine works (burning time of engine) 150, 320 and 350 seconds in the last three times and finally the engine of second stage reaches to operational stage."

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

He says in Simorgh, this engines of second stage will be replaced with more thrust engines (I think these more thrust engines are  the same bigger nozzle engines that has been talked about them in some artciles):

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]


http://forum.avastarco.com/forum/showthread.php?220-%D9%86%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%8A%D8%B4%DA%AF%D8%A7%D9%87-%D8%AF%D8%B3%D8%AA%D8%A7%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%AF%D9%87%D8%A7%D9%8A-%D8%B5%D9%86%D8%B9%D8%AA-%D8%AF%D9%81%D8%A7%D8%B9%D9%8A-%D9%83%D8%B4%D9%88%D8%B1&s=f76d3c5d71029a1ddbd99ee6b45c1770


Although it is said engines of second stage of Safir is based vernier engines of Russian R-27 missile, but difference of thrust of that engine and engines of Safir is very much so that it is possible to say engines of second stage of Safir isn't reverse engineering version of vernier engine of R-27, Thrust of vernier engine of R-27 is around 15 tons but thrust of each engine of second stage of Safir is around 3.5 tons. 

Offline Immortal

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Unha-4/Simorgh-2
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2012, 02:53:51 AM »
+1
Don't directly compare Unha-4 to Smiorgh-2, or Unha-3 to Simorgh because North Korea missile don't even work properly as evident by ANOTHER recent launch failure.

Iran's missiles are operational and Iran is able to extract every piece of power from their missiles such as the Safir. Where as North Korea couldn't even launch a satellite into space with a 3 STAGE rocket. Iran managed to do it with a rocket that has two stages.

Iran is currently far more advanced in the space program and ballistic missile program then North Korea. Iran assists North Korea more than North Korea assists Iran at this point.

Furthermore, I don't believe the Simorgh-2 will used for astronauts. The manned space flight is planned for 2020, the Simorgh is going to launch this year. So that natural advancement and progression means that Simorgh 2 will be operational by 2015 to lift heavier satellites. This means its highly unlikely that the Simorgh-2 will be powerful enough for a manned spaceflight or be able to hold a big enough capsule.

Thus it will probably be a Simorgh-3 (possible use by 2018) or Simorgh-4 (2021?) that actually launches a manned Iranian space flight. The estimations are based on the fact that as Iran advances around every 3 years a new generation SLV will be developed and used.

Safir was launched in 2009, Simorgh will launch in 2012, Simorgh-2 will launch by 2015, Simorgh-3 will launch by 2018, and Simorgh-4 or whatever it is called will be Iran's manned spaceflight launching in 2021.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 02:57:55 AM by Immortal »

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Re: Unha-4/Simorgh-2
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2012, 03:05:21 AM »
0
Don't directly compare Unha-4 to Smiorgh-2, or Unha-3 to Simorgh because North Korea missile don't even work properly as evident by ANOTHER recent launch failure.
I agree with you. Unha-3 and Simorgh have fundamental differences even in appearance and stages and as we talked before thrust of Simorgh despite being smaller and lighter than Unha-3 is more than thrust of Unha-3.

Hope to Simorgh don't face such failures of North Koreans. This failure is sad, I don't like to be in their position.

Offline mamdali

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Unha-4/Simorgh-2
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2012, 03:10:02 AM »
0
I hate to say this but Immortal actually makes sense in this case and I agree with their analysis.

Mamdali
(Note:  I hope I'm being redundant by saying that given the state of misinformation and factless and unsupported content that is rife on the 'internet' today, naturally, I cannot endorse, believe, support, or accept any of links posted by me or others.  I personally find them interesting, however, as they open new perspectives for me.  I leave it to the reader to glean what they can or want from them).

Offline Immortal

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Re: Unha-4/Simorgh-2
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2012, 03:35:36 AM »
+1
I agree with you. Unha-3 and Simorgh have fundamental differences even in appearance and stages and as we talked before thrust of Simorgh despite being smaller and lighter than Unha-3 is more than thrust of Unha-3.

Hope to Simorgh don't face such failures of North Koreans. This failure is sad, I don't like to be in their position.

North Korea is basically trying to "copy" Iran's space rockets while at the same time maintaining their own designs. Thus this article is completely false saying that some of the 20 Unha-3 rockets were transferred to Iran in order to be launched as the Simorgh. That is a blatant disrespect to Iran's space program. Why would Iran need Unha-3 rockets when its domestically Simorgh is completely capable? This article assumes Iran is still in the year 2000 when they use North Korean No-Dongs and name them Shahab-3. Iran has since largely eclipsed North Korea and that is evident by the Sejill and Sejill-2 as Iran now enters solid fuel ballistic missile technology. North Korea cannot even get liquid fuel technology to work, where as Iran is extracting every piece of power it can from the Safir rocket.

Thus I would have to say this article has incorrect information in it. I also question how strongly Iran and North Korea work together. You would think that Iran would either have supplied North Korea with Safir rockets or helped North Korea have a successful launch especially one as public as this. While technology sharing occurs its seems that the link isn't as strong as people think especially after North Korea failed to put up another rocket into space.

Outside of using North Korea as an intermediate to get Chinese military equipment, Iran is seeing North Korea become less and less useful. A lot of the media likes to imply there is a really close strategic bond between Iran and North Korea in order to create this sense that the two isolated powers are so close. When in reality Iran and North Korea's relationship at this point is a mutual relationship that makes sense. However, now Iran is advancing at its own pace in both its space program and ballistic missile program and the true value to this strategic alliance is actually diminishing. If anything North Korea relies on Iran now.



 

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